Would hockey fans forgive and forget another lockout?

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In an HIO poll earlier this month, 59 per cent of more than 2,000 voters said they believe there will be an NHL lockout this season.

You have figure that number will grow after Gary Bettman told reporters in Toronto on Wednesday: “There’s still a wide gap between us with not much time to go.”

His comment came a day after the NHL Players’ Association gave its proposal to the league.

“I do think it’s fair to say that the sides are still apart — far apart — and have different views of the world and the issues,” added Bettman, who has made it clear he’s prepared to lock out the players when the current CBA expires on Sept. 15.

“I think it’s fair to say that we value the proposal and what it means in terms of its economics differently than the players’ association does,” Bettman said. “I think there still are a number of issues where we’re looking at the world differently. I’m not sure that there has yet been a recognition of the economics in our world — and I mean the greater world and the sports industry, taking into account what recently happened with the NFL and the NBA.”

 Would hockey fans forgive and forget another NHL lockout?

The NHL lost the entire 2004-05 season to a lockout and hockey fans in many cities – especially Montreal – seemed even more hungry for their fix when it was over. The Canadiens have sold out every single game since the lockout — including preseason games at regular-season prices.

Read more on the NHL labour talks by clicking here.

(Photo by Phil Carpenter/The Gazette)

134 Comments

  1. Andy Poo says:

    this fan will NOT….we have a few groups on facebook looking to boycott the NHL and create a fans union….here they are

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/438660202852211/

  2. jabber39 says:

    I’m not sure if I would be able to no longer watch hockey…however…when they do come back if its sometime later this season or next or who the hell knows…please…NHL PR/Marketing people…spare us the “Thank You Fans” bullshit…i don’t want to see any of that shit…and don’t force your teams to salute the crowd on their way out…cause clearly…and obviously…the owners…the players…the media…don’t give a rats ass about the fans…so spare us the bullshit please!!!!

    Knowing is Half the Battle…

  3. otisfxu says:

    Obviously you haven’t seen some of these snooze fests that the NHL likes to call hockey. There are so many dull games on a nightly basis it’s pathetic. Way too many games. The hockey in October, November is terrible.

    And after a lockout, shudder to think. They will be trying to play a 50 game season in 3 months. Love hockey, but these clowns running the teams and league are ruining the game.

  4. roady says:

    The perfect time for the NHL to retract or re-locate the stragglers to viable markets…….say like maybe to Canada where we care about growing the game …I’m more for the fans than either side….we’re the ones paying for it……………unforgiven if there’s a lockout…brilliant…!

    take your drink to the end of the bar buddy…come on now, don’t be a fool…

  5. doug19 says:

    Great I can forget cable or sat. Lets change the name to NGHL.

  6. otisfxu says:

    You really have to wonder about the intelligence of these owners. They close the season down so they can get their hard cap – 39M – then 7 years later the system they designed has the cap at 70M, and they can’t accept that.

    So now that the league revenue has reached 3.5Billion from the 2 billion it was in 2004, why isn’t everyone happy?
    For one thing it is now no different than without a cap – the cap is so high only the same 6-8 rich teams can afford to pay 70M in salaries.

    The whole league is a F-up. Have a good time boys, NFL starts in two weeks – goes to January. I’m fine. Take your sticks and pucks and go home.

    • chilli says:

      NFL. One game a week… the rest is all one big pre-game, post-game, commercials and marketing platform for TV shows and movies coming out.
      The average ‘motion’ per game i.e.. where players are moving and actually being athletes in between whistles: 13 mins. That was the Super Bowl…the telecast was 11 hours. 13 mins in 11 hours. NFL = No Fun League.

      Tre

      • boing007 says:

        Worse than that. After the kickoff, time for a commercial. The team goes four and out. Time for another commercial. Come back for the punt kick. Receiving team plays the ball. Time for another commercial. Ad nauseum. That’s why it’s so well loved by its sponsors. They get to play more than the players on the field.

        Richard R
        Price is an oyster. Unfortunately not all oysters produce pearls.

  7. danedmunds says:

    pre-season only sells out because group ticket and season ticket holders are forced to buy them. ridiculous

    go habs go

  8. habsfan1993 says:

    Much more than I care about the NHL, more even than I care about the Habs, I care about the Stanley Cup.
    It is unimaginable that we went a year without it being awarded in 2005. I cannot fathom this happening again.

    The Stanley Cup does not belong to the NHL. The NHL is merely borrowing it from Lord Stanley’s heirs. What needs to happen is for the people who actually own the Cup to say that if the NHL refuses to let its players play, they (the owners) will take the Cup back and award it to someone else. Take your pick: the AHL Calder Cup winners also get the Stanley Cup, or the Swedish elite league, or the KHL victors, or some showdown of all of several top-tier national champions. I don’t care who. But the NHL must lose the right to award the Cup, and perhaps not ever get it back.

    “Just because you are wearing a new Maple Leafs sweater, does not mean you make the rules around here, young man.”

  9. New says:

    When the last lockout was on I was thinking that I was interested in pro hockey because I found the game exciting. I watched the players not the owners. I never considered paying to watch management play golf.

    I remember so many people yelling “That’s it…never again…I’m done.” Yeah.

    I suspect that if they shut her down for a year the same thing will happen again. We will all survive and a couple years after the shut-down everything will be back to normal, $350 dollar $5 sweaters, and the beer will cost more. Either the players or the owners will have more money and franchises will be flipped for twice what they were bought for.

    Soccer is boring. Baseball and Basketball are for playing not watching. NFL football is great though.

    Maybe someone will start their own temporary league, Quebec, Hamiliton, Montreal, Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary and play for the Lowe’s or Rona Cup or something. A network with 25 hours to fill a week would follow that.

    • DoomsdayDarrin says:

      When the last lockout ended, Bettman catered to the American fan base, with all kinds of gimmicks, and the shootout was one of them. Whether you like ties or not, it was newer fans that wanted the shootout, what will we get if there’s Another work stoppage..Naked shootout hockey?? And BTW, I think we’re the Only major sport where your regular season for deciding games is different from your playoffs. No shootouts in them.

      gary smith

  10. Coach K says:

    To accept the player’s counter-offer would be an admission that the owner’s have it all wrong. That will never happen because they would never admit that the players could possibly be right – on anything. It will be the owner’s way or not at all and thus, a lockout.

    The only thing that could possibly give the owners pause would be the previously discussed financial penalties that could be imposed on the league for failing to provide content to the TV networks.

    Lets face it, the primary reason we have teams in non-traditional hockey markets is so that the owners could, with hand-over-heart say to the U.S. broadcasters, “we are truly a national sport – not just a regional one” let’s work out a nation-wide broadcast deal. That said, it sure seems counter-intuitive for the owners who clamored and courted all these years for a national US carrier to broadcast NHL games, to then turn around and shut off the content tap.
    If the specter of losing their hard-earned TV deals (and all that revenue) doesn’t motivate them nothing will.

    —–“This is the only thing that has seen more parties than us.”—–
    Steven Tyler, Aerosmith’s lead singer, after admiring the Stanley Cup…

    • DoomsdayDarrin says:

      I was wondering, if there is a lockout, that’s Two under Gary Bettmans regime, aka dictatorship, when can we get him fired?? Also, how would Next Junes draft work, if there is No season, would the Habs still hold the Third pick, like this past seasons?? And if so, can teams move up or down, is there a lottery??

      gary smith

  11. Habfan17 says:

    I heard on the Team1200 this morning that both Nash and Thorton will go play for Djurgarten if their is a lock out! That speaks volumes to me that all they want is money. Why risk injury, and potentially a career ending one if what you really want is to play in the NHL and you want to help your team try to win the cup?

    It is great for the superstars but what about the middle to low end players? What about the players who’s jobs they are taking? Very seflish!! Even with the lockout, they are under contract. Owners could argue that if they get hurt and can’t play once an agreement is in place, revenues will suffer and they are in breach of contract.

    What would the players say if the owners brought in other players to play?

    Habfan17

    • If your employer locked you out and the pay cheques weren’t going to be coming in for potentially a year or more, would it be selfish of you to try to find work elsewhere? And would you accept the deal, even if it meant a big reduction in your salary and benefits, just out of loyalty to your company and your profession?

      And anyway, the players can’t be in breach of contract because the owners won’t give them a contract — or at least not a fair one. There’s no contract to breach.

      Mike Boone: “With Gainey at my side, I’d walk into any dark alley in the world.”

    • stevieray says:

      You hit the nail on the head friend. I remember tha last lock out …Nash played against Canada in the Spangler Cup ..just about made me puke ..that’s when I lost respect foir his sorry ass …

  12. HankHardball says:

    Bettman’s attitude seems to be, accept the owners’ initial insult or there will be a lockout.

    If I was Fehr and the players, I’d be questioning whether the owners are bargaining in good faith.

    Under Bettman’s reign, NHL CBA negotiations always seem to end with blood on the floor. Hopefully, this time it will be Bettman’s.

  13. habstrinifan says:

    Unlike a certain prosateur among us, whose entertaining and calming style I enjoy as much as Boone’s game blog, I must confess an ominous disquiet that my life would be miserable without hockey. And having laid claim to the eschewed title of ‘sh**t disturber non pareil’ for HIO. (my work is at the other end of the spectrum to Boone’s live Blog), I bring you fine folks the following ‘contest du jour’… even while I assure that fine resident of Surrey that my tongue is firmly planted in my cheek.

    His observation, “I find it difficult to conceive these 2 individuals, Fehr and Bettman”, will no doubt ring true to many here. Employing all your knowledge of archaeology, evolution, reproduction, alchemy and even egyptology I want you to come up with the best answer as to how these two specimen, Fehr and Bettman, were conceived.

    Hint: The answer is found neither in the book “Joy of sex” nor the Kuma Sutra.

  14. yehaken says:

    Lockout means another lottery pick. Just sayin.

  15. JohnBellyful says:

    I don’t know how the contracts the NHL has with the CBC, TSN, NBC, Versus and others are structured but if they don’t contain a penalty clause for failing to provide content, ie, games, for their broadcasts, they should. Not living up to that commitment forces broadcasters to scramble to fill scheduling holes and sell advertising at a discounted rate.
    The penalty should be substantial. The longer the work stoppage is, the less the networks should have to pay when play resumes. That is, the cost that was contractually agreed upon for broadcasting rights will be lowered for the length of contract by degrees based on the length of time it took the two sides to reach an agreement.
    Of course, the league cannot be expected to bear the brunt alone if such a penalty were to be levied. The players’ association would also have to be held accountable and shoulder some of the financial impact, in order to give both sides an incentive to work toward a speedy resolution of their differences.
    The goose that lays the golden eggs, television, will continue to produce for them but the more they mistreat it, the fewer eggs they should expect to receive, with a penalty clause.

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      Well John, the players are already incurring a financial penalty in the case of a work stoppage, in that they don’t receive their paycheque, their current 57% of the revenues that they generate. Also, since they are staring at a lockout, it would be blatantly unfair that they incur any additional penalty for an action the owners started.

      In general, that’s what strikes and lockouts are, statements that one party believes so strongly in their position compared to the other’s that they’re willing to incur financial loss to apply pressure to the other party.

      In a fair world the system works well, but recently sports leagues have begun to work ‘lockout insurance’ in their contracts, where they’ll receive their TV money even if games aren’t being played. In the NFL lockout last season, the courts were looking at this with a jaundiced eye, there were doubts that the contracts would hold up, that they would be seen as a monopolistic practice and bargaining in bad faith. So while the NFL hoped that they could sit back and watch the money roll in while the NFLPA imploded, they came back to the table in fear of what the courts would decree, and worked out a deal that was less one-sided than the one they intended to force upon the players.

      ———————————————————————–
      This isn’t “Billionaires vs. Millionaires.” Only a willfully uninformed fool would apply that sloppy shorthand designation to this disgraceful power grab crafted by some of the wealthiest individuals and corporate entities in North America aimed against professional athletes.–Larry Brooks of the New York Post

      http://relentlessineptitude.blogspot.com/

  16. HabinBurlington says:

    Seems to me that end of the day the current negotiation is about one thing, Money. So how can the owners get the players to give up part of the Total Revenue percentage while not taking away money? All I can come up with is player safety which could/should lead to longer careers and thus more earning potential.

    So the owners need to show they are serious about making the game safer for players. I think it is foolish to say the owners need to show they care, but rather show they are serious about this. How this is done I am not 100% sure but have some ideas, which many of us have mentioned here in the past:
    Change in equipment – Elbow and Shoulder pads are changed to a softer material, instead of the current Kevlar Weaponry.
    Enforcement of the Rulebook – Contact in the game is allowed to seperate a player from the puck, the current enforcement of this rule is more like the counting of 5 Steamboats after the player last touched the puck.
    Independant 3rd Party to assess further discipline instead of the current league run Kangaroo court.

    And most importantly, for every 1% which the players sacrifice, 1/2 of each percent the owners must pay into a fund which will go to players upon the end of their playing career to help with any medical issues they are left with after their playing careers. Too many players are no longer playing and need help.

    Wouldn’t hurt to also have the league make a concerted effort to improve the quality of refereeing, there needs to be accountability amongst the various refs in order to ensure that the rulebook can be enforced.

    • Ian Cobb says:

      Some great points Gerald. Are you busy? maybe volunteer at the negotiation table.

    • habstrinifan says:

      Very valid considerations but may be too much to handle within the framework of this contractual dispute. However, the safety of modern day equipment needs to be front and centre when this dispute is resolved.

      I place more of the onus on the NHLPA, once a salary structure is reached, to force investigation and debate into the areas of Equipment Change and Rules Enforcement. I see the players as the ones most responsible for the apathy that has prevailed.

      Re your point about retired players in financial and life difficulties, it is my impression that a lot has already been done to correct this and specific funding has been put in place. I could be wrong.

  17. Ian Cobb says:

    Summit News! LOCK OUT,

    “IF” a lock out happens, I have instructed the Bell Center to not refund my visa account, but to hold on to our money and replace all the tickets purchased with the same seats at a date of our choosing.

    It would be a nightmare for me to get everyone’s mailing address, pay for money orders, stamps etc. for a hundred and fifty people.

    Anyone who could not make the new date, we will help you sell your new tickets to other HIO members that would like to go.
    This is only a heads up in the event of a lockout.

    Summit game tickets, News, Pictures and comments
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Montreal-Canadiens-We-Are-Fans-Summit/197390760316125
    Ian

  18. Yesterday at the Hall of Fame

    http://www.legendsofhockey.net/TSN/playbyplay.jsp?video=SHOLI2000@WCGWAVE.CA_f7869318-8d76-4c47-baa9-f1780e72d223.wmv

    They Call Me Shane
    “They never asked to be Canadiens, they were Chosen.”
    Shane Oliver
    Twitter @Sholi2000
    http://www.Sholi2000.com
    Custom Sports Figures

  19. HabinBurlington says:

    A pretty good synopsis of why the owners will not accept players recent counter offer, and why there will most likely be a lockout.

    http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2012/08/15/grange_nhl_nhlpa_cba_talks_fehr_proposal/

    • Habfan10912 says:

      Good morning friend. As sports fans most of us hate the business side of sports. The lines in the sand have been drawn. Now it is likley to be a stare down for the next few weeks to see who blinks first. That said, it does appear that the players have won round one of the public opinion poll as most see it as the league trying to prop up failing franchises. I am not from the same doom and gloom as some here are. I think both sides realize any kind of a work stoppage during these economic times will have disasterous effects on their business. It’s going to be a stressful few weeks but they’ll get it done. Fingers crossed.

      ———————————–

    • wjc says:

      You have no clue how negotiations work……no lock out, no strike.

      wjc

      • punkster says:

        “You have no clue” is not exactly the best way to begin a reasonable discussion, make a valid point or be taken seriously.

        ***Subbang Baby!!!***

      • HabinBurlington says:

        Your input is always welcomed, however, please re-read and realize I am giving a 1 line description of what Michael Grange is hypothesizing in his article. As Punkster points out, you do provide an inspiring way of initiating discussion.

      • Rozz says:

        after finally seeing a positive post below from wjc i questioned if he may have seen the light finally .. but NOPE .. your still being as condescending as always .. so my mission continues :)

        “When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.”

        Mark Twain.

  20. HabFanSince72 says:

    What’s clear is that neither party cares about us, Canadian hockey fans.

    This was made evident to me during the playoff run a couple of years ago when two of our Saturday games were played in the afternoon.

    Of the two sides the most damaging proposal is the players’.

    But it isn’t this that would make me lose interest. I already have.

    The attitude towards head shots. The dullness of the modern game resulting from a desire for parity (although Jacques Martin didn’t help). For the first time since the lockout I didn’t attend a single game.


    Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.

  21. Cal says:

    Ho-hum, another lockout and a lost season. $3 billion down the toilet. NHL owners and Bettman are evil and should go to hell. NHL players are greedy and should join the owners there in hell, too.
    The league is as screwed up as it could be, with teams in different areas of the US with NO FAN BASE, save for a few diehards.
    NJ and the NY Islanders may as well be invisible because of the long shadow cast by the Rangers. The Yotes franchise is the most ludicrous idea in the NHL’s history. Tampa and Florida rely on Canadians to keep their teams afloat. Meanwhile, Quebec City and Hamilton fans wait… and wait.
    Gouging fans in Canada to support these poorer cousins always has been a great idea, if you’re the owner of a sh!t franchise.
    Screw both sides. If they can’t figure out how to divide all those piles of money, I suggest stuffing it down their throats so they can all asphyxiate.

    • wjc says:

      Calm blue ocean…calm blue ocean. Fans are not gouged, they come to the trough willingly.

      Bitterness is not good for your well being…..take a deep breath…think good thoughts.

      Obviously, the distraction sport is supposed to offer is not working in your case. Say to yourself…it is just a game…it is just a game…I will watch the process unfold and realize that negotiations are just a game also.

      wjc

      • Cal says:

        Obviously, you live in a world of make-believe where Scott Go(away)mez scores 80 points a season and earns his exhorbitant salary.
        Try saying this to yourself: “I will take my meds and stop hallucinating. I will take my meds and stop hallucinating.”

        The NHL will be back in January or later. Hope you have a good supply of your meds until then.

  22. smiler2729 says:

    The last lockout still pisses me off to no end, another one would just be the nail in the coffin for me when it comes to NHL hockey, F*** ‘EM!

    _______________________________________
    Calling it like it is:
    Jack Edwards is a clam.
    Tim Thomas is a Nugentian lunatic.
    Boston Bruins, gutless diving weasel pukes.

    • HabinBurlington says:

      I hear you, but if I am being honest I still come back to watch them. Not sure I would officially forgive, and definitely won’t forget but would be watching again.

      Problem for me is I really enjoy watching sports, I have already given up on the NBA years ago, my MLB watching is already greatly reduced from what it once was. The NFL, NHL and PGA tour have become my pro sports fixes. I can get through the fall without NHL, but come Jan./Feb. I will be missing hockey big time.

      I think another stoppage could really hurt the Predators, Coyotes, Stars, Canes etc… In those markets there is plenty of other sports to fill the markets sports appetite. Giving those fans a choice of who to follow can be dangerous for those hockey teams.

    • wjc says:

      Anyone that is this angry, is very emotionally attached, which guarantees you will be back.

      Now the good news, there will be no lock out, so you will not be disappointed. You will be able to stress about Gomez before you know it.

      wjc

  23. JUST ME says:

    Let`s not kid ourselves here. We are in the most historical hockey market and although i think that the past has less and less to do with modern hockey, it will never die in Mtl. To think that is like the ones that threaten not to drink Molson beer anymore to make the Habs pay for it. Whatever each of us think individually makes no difference.

    Unfortunately we are a drop in the ocean of indifference from athletes and owners that are not on the same planet as we are.

    The system in place is going around in circles cause it is trying to save some dying teams at any cost. I do not mind having a system that is fair for everyone but i mind about openly having to change things so other can survive when we all know that eventually it will not be enough.

    Furthermore i have no reason to think that those weak owners will make the sacrifices needed when your business is in danger. There is something crooked about having to pay $200 for a ticket in MTL when somewhere else you get 3 for 60 $ plus beer ,hot-dogs, parking and what not. Already how can you have a system that is fair if the same effort cannot be done everywhere. Basically in MTL i have to overpay to compensate to make sure that millionaires can survive under the sun ?

    There will be hockey this year a bit before the outdoor classic. It is strategically and commercially pivotal in the NHL`s survival. Whatever call me Gary says ,everything is at stake with that game and he will not risk losing precious income and most importantly an important window on america and it`s sponsors.
    Just a few weeks before that game then Gary will put pressure on the owners to give in.Do not expect Donald Fehr to move an inch.

    • wjc says:

      Just me, hope you are not offended if I offer my 3.5332 cents worth.

      Toronto and Montreal both have history that was their glory time, Toronto won 4 Stanley cups in the 60’s which they relive, just like Montreal fans have fond memories of dynasties well into the 70’s.

      The NHL has 30 partners and they are in this together, they need each other. Montreal needs rivalries and Dallas and Los Angles need rivalries as well.

      Canada is not a problem, they already love hockey.

      Americans need time for the kids to catch on to the game and become fans that love the game.

      The NHL generate a lot of income that has to be divided among the gifted talented players and the Owner (Investors). It has to be done fairly…..thus the problem that must and will be solved.

      The owners are business men and the players are in business as well. They have the gift of talent and are entitled to their share of the revenues.

      Bettman on behalf of the owners did such a good job of growing the league and as a result increasing revenues, that the players were taking an unfair amount and the owners said FIX IT.

      As far as paying $200.00 a ticket, that is a choice everyone makes, my choice is to keep the $200.00 plus in my pocket, but the demand is high in Montreal/Toronto so the seats still get sold….good for them.

      Final note….negotiations are a game, with a predictable process, and I see nothing that convinces me that this will be settle in a timely fashion with both sides happy in a win/win situation.
      wjc

  24. Habspark says:

    We are all hockey fans, as such I don’t think any of us can throw off that switch.

    I don’t know the ins and outs, but that initial offer from the owners to start the ball rolling (end of july was it?) should have been laid down a long time ago, probably even last summer. If they know from the last time that this can take the best part of a year to sort out, it smells both of arrogance (to players and fans) and incompetence that they have not taken measures to pre-empt that from happening this time around.

    I’ll never stop loving hockey and I’ll never stop going to habs games, but if we do end up having two lockouts eight years apart, though it does not seem to worry them, the NHL will look pretty bad as professional sports organisations go.

    I can’t say at this stage, but If the lockout continues through another season, I may not be happy about increased prices for a game ticket in the future, afterall it is the extra revenue that constitutes the need for these negotiations in the first place!

    • wjc says:

      Negotiations with a deadline work best…..long drawn out negotiations, become just that long and drawn out, wearing everyone out.

      Negotiations are a process, with give and take, take and give. Proposals back and forth. There are no bad/good guys here.

      1. The fans, sit back and enjoy the process, once you understand the process and back and forth displays of righteousness, it all becomes predictably amusing.

      2. The Players, the gifted, talented unique players (some more then others) have a right to an equal share of the revenue pie, and as it stands in my opinion, that pie is a little lopsided.

      3. Owners, the money guys that pay the freight, from the revenues donated by the fans, (don’t forget pay-per-view and T.V. contracts advertizing etc.) look after all the travel, arena staff, managers, scouts, lawsuits, taxes, insurance, sticks, pucks, energy on and on.

      4. Garry Bettman, who represents the owners and has done a great job of getting the league recongnized deep into the United States and increase revenues, has done such a good job that the revenue dividing needs a little adjustment. The players aknowledge this as well with concessions that do not quite cut it apparently…early in the process.

      The Process Once they establish some mutual ground in which to work toward an agreement, a couple of marathon meetings will tidy things up quickly and everyone including the fans will have a win/win/win scenario and it will be lets drop the puck.

      wjc

  25. Habitant in Surrey says:

    …anyOne that says They can not live without hockey, or Their lives would be miserable without hockey, really should look Themselves in the mirror and recognize They have sad lives
    …look around and open Your eyes to all the alternatives …like Your family and all sorts of other potentials to fulfill Yourselves
    …99% of You do not have a monetary interest in the Habs, or any other NHL team …99.99% of You are not employed by the Habs, or any other NHL team
    …will I miss watching My Team play ? …yes I will …but, until They decide to resolve this owner/employee disagreement, I can find innumerable things to preoccupy Myself
    …will I come back ? …as a Fan …You’re damn tootin’ !
    …I find it difficult to conceive these 2 individuals, Fehr and Bettman, stupid enough to allow this to drag out more than a few months, with all the potentials to shoot themselves in the pocketbook
    …the new NBC contract being the first-thing in My mind, if I was Bettman, and almost as much if I was Fehr …bleeding a certain percentage of players to the KHL will be another concern
    …I’m on the fence on whom I lay most of My sympathies …I want the players to have a solid, stable and renumerative contract for the next 5 to 10 years, but I would like the NHL to cap lengths of contracts to 6 or 7 years, …I would like to lengthen entry-level years before a player has rights to UFA and RFA status
    …on the NHL side, I want the wealthier clubs to be accountable to fix their own in-house conundrum of profit distribution to the financial dogs of the League, instead of putting that burden unfairly on the players
    …everything else is detail and housekeeping
    …until hockey resumes, I will be instead interested to watch this on-going chess-match between 2 very shrewd ‘gamers’ named Bettman/Buttman and Fehr
    …which, in it’s own way, will be as interesting to watch as some NHL games :)
    _________________________________________________________
    Habitant means PASSIONATE HOCKEY
    http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=423049

    Campaign to Retire Toe Blake’s Number 6 !!!

    • wjc says:

      Habitat in Surrey, well said brother, you said it all.

      Let me paraphrase a little if I may….you are saying “get a life, it is a big world out there, hockey is fun, I will not deny I follow and will continue to follow it.

      No good guy, or bad guys just some tweeking needed.

      AAAAA+

      wjc

      • Rozz says:

        I’m shocked .. a positive post from wjc? is this the beginning of a change? I hope so!

        “When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.”

        Mark Twain.

  26. Marc10 says:

    Time to sign up for the AHL package.

    I’m with the players on this one. Greater rev sharing needs to happen to maintain the health of the league. I don’

  27. HABSGUARDIANANGEL says:

    “you have figure?”” dude are you writing your articles high again?

  28. D Mex says:

    Thought-provoking question by SC : who knows ?
    Watching the Habs uniform move on the ice has always been magic – I was fortunate to attend games played by the likes of Béliveau, Ferguson and Hull, and sported a leg cast when Savard did. My sons are Habs fans and one of them lived my dream by skating and scoring at the most important rink in the league a few years ago.

    But the NHL today bears little resemblance to what I knew as a kid – team personnel come and go in mercenary fashion that Mark Langston would be proud of, and Uncle Sam must surely approve of the job Buttman ‘ et al ‘ do every time they wack the faithful with ridiculous number$ for bobble$ and pink t-shirt$.

    Forgive and forget another lockout ?
    Maybe the better question is : why do these guys seem hell-bent on finding out ??
    After all, loyalty works best when it’s a two-way street.

    ALWAYS Habs –
    D Mex

  29. CharlieHodgeFan says:

    There have been periods in my life when I did not pay close attention to the Habs. So technically, I could go back to half-hearted fandom. But I really enjoy watching not only a good hockey game, but how a team is built and how a good hockey season plays out. There’s a process you see as you step back (and possibly as you age) that makes a lot of the short term debates here uninteresting, and makes the long view appealing.

    That said, I never thought I’d lose interest in baseball, and I have.

    I don’t attend games now, as that money goes to the kids’ education. I don’t buy NHL merchandise. So to the Habs corporation, I’m already a lousy fan. To the NHL, the good fans are buyers of blocks of tickets who may not even attend a game or know who is on the ice. I think I’ve finally reached the stage, with the ticket prices and the greed, where an NHL lockout would mean the cancellation of my favourite TV show, and not much more.

    But man, I like to watch that show.

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      After a player’ strike I vowed never to buy a hockey ticket again or a jersey or anything with an NHL logo that they derive revenue from. It was pointed out to me that my ‘boycott’ was futile, since I pay for the NHL’s services through a markup on my beer purchases and the next truck I buy and insurance and bank fees, so I’m not really holding out. I’m chipping in a nickel every year on Scott Gomez’ services.

      And that’s the dirty little secret. Whenever we pay our outrageous cable or phone bill, we funnel some of that money to the NHL, whether we like it or not.

      ———————————————————————–
      This isn’t “Billionaires vs. Millionaires.” Only a willfully uninformed fool would apply that sloppy shorthand designation to this disgraceful power grab crafted by some of the wealthiest individuals and corporate entities in North America aimed against professional athletes.–Larry Brooks of the New York Post

      http://relentlessineptitude.blogspot.com/

      • CharlieHodgeFan says:

        I have no problem paying into the NHL system – I enjoy the game and if it makes no money, it’s gone.
        I don’t pay much in, and I have no intention of ever again attending a game – shocking as that sounds, I am a cheap basta** and the Bell Centre experience is not worth that much money to me. It’s a great spectacle, but not at those prices.

        After the last strike, I was desperate to watch high quality hockey. I settled for what we got. I’d never vow to boycott the hockey business, but I will try to amble off, and probably will fail.

      • boing007 says:

        Whenever we pay our outrageous cable or phone bill, we funnel some of that money to the NHL, whether we like it or not.

        You could probably add some other items that we are contributing to that could be much more unseemly. Investment portfolios and such.

        Richard R
        Price is an oyster. Unfortunately not all oysters produce pearls.

  30. HardHabits says:

    Some Olympic Memes for your jocular enjoyment.

  31. Chuck says:

    The NHL needs to take a hard look at itself and do what every other big business does when economic times get rough: cut the dead weight. The teams that make money are paying bucket loads of money to keep the money pits of the league afloat.

    Betteman says that they need teams in all regions of the US in order to land a national television contract to bring in the REALLY big bucks. Well, how’s that working out for you, Gary?

    Instead of cutting player costs by getting them to take a smaller slice of the pie, cut 20%, plus associated expenses, by axing the six teams that are the biggest financial boat anchors; the ones that have absolutely no hope of generating anything positive for the league.

    20% fewer players dividing up the same slice (or slightly larger one than they have right now. No more funding the millions in losses for teams like the Coyotes. A more efficient, profitable league of money-generating teams in cities where that actually want to financially support the product is what’s necessary.

    Would it suck that the bottom 20% of the players would have to make a living elsewhere? For them, yes; but they’re not going to get a lot of sympathy from the auto worker who’s been downsized because his industry realized that it needed to trim the fat.

    ___________________________________________________
    Being a Hab fan is like buying real estate: only over the long-haul will you appreciate the true value of your investment.

    • wjc says:

      You missed the point. NHL economic times are not tough. Investers (owners) want more return on Investment (RTI). More revenue’s pouring their way, they are not throwing any owners overboard, this is a 30 man partnership.

      The really big bucks are flowing in and it is working out quite well, but the split has to be more even. Is that so hard to understand.

      Say you had a 100 acre field, that you wanted to plant corn on. You need someone to dig, seed and pick it. You want as much return from that operation as you can get. You give the labor the majority of the profits, so the next year you make changes that favor you.

      After all it is your land and seed and you want your fair share or why not shut it down until the workers see reason.

      Not on anyone’s side just looking at the logic. I am with Charley Hodge above, I to am a poor fan, spend as little as I can, and simply watch on T.V.
      wjc

      • Rozz says:

        I had posted something in response to something above but my post ended up here so i’m just gonna edit it out :D

        “When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.”

        Mark Twain.

  32. kempie says:

    Just consider the implications of a work stoppage on this team:

    We burn off another year of Gomez/Kaberle
    Another year of OHL for Galchenyuk with no pressure
    A full year in the AHL for Tinordi/Beaulieu/Ellis/Gallagher/Bournival/Gomez
    Another full year of rehab for Markov
    One year gone from MT’s contract

    It’s not really ALL bad.

    • wjc says:

      First of all, give the Gomez, Kabrele baloney a rest, neither will hurt this team this year.
      Galchenyuk is going to OHL this year regardless.
      Gomez is in a Montreal Canadiens uniform this year, and the rest are in the AHL regardless, with the exception of a rash of injuries.
      Markov does not need anymore rehab, sitting out a year would be the worst thing for him.
      Anybody at anytime can blow out a knee, worry about Subban or Patricetty
      Therien needs to be allowed to coach, is he going to stop Montreal from winning the Stanley cup.

      wjc

      • Rozz says:

        Yes you are correct.. neither will hurt the team this year.. IF there is a lock out that is. but if they play then they most certainly will hurt this team. first they will by wasting a lot of money we could be paying to someone who is good.. or at least can score more than 2 goals a season (doesn’t even have to be good to be an upgrade over Gomez) and someone who knows what defence is to begin with. secondly they will hurt the team by playing valuable mins that we could be giving to our youth who deserve way more of a chance to play this year than those 2… especially Gomez, he has his day and now either doesn’t care about the game any more or just plain lost any ability to play the game at all. thirdly they will hurt this team by just sucking when they are on the ice for our team.. you know the same way that all players who are useless hurt their teams by causing bad plays and give away’s etc etc etc… but that all is pretty obvious to every one but you, in fact id really like to know how you think they are going to help this team at all? that’s the real question here… lets here your Gomez cheer leading mentality conjures up some wacky circular logic to justify Gomer and Kabbies ultimate suckattude …

        “When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.”

        Mark Twain.

        • wjc says:

          What point totals would make you happy for Gomez?

          You are entitled to your opinion and I mine, I know Rozz is an alias.

          You know where I stand and let the season play out and I might be eating a lot of crow, but I don’t think so.

          Gomez will be a valuable member of this team, just like his first year in Montreal… Peace brother.

          wjc

          • Rozz says:

            actually Rozz is a nickname derived from my last name when I played football .. my last name is Rozborowskyj and Rozz is much easier to remember for people.. I have no problem you knowing my name at all.. i don’t need an alias.. but what was your point to begin with though? nearly every one uses an “alias” online lol

            “When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.”

            Mark Twain.

          • Rozz says:

            Oh and to answer your question about what point totals would make me happy for Gomez.. well I’m not gonna aim too high I suppose.. so I’ll say 7 goals .. lets see if he can even put up a goal per every million he gets paid.. that would be a start.. but now that I think about it .. that probably is aiming way too high!

            “When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.”

            Mark Twain.

    • The Dude says:

      After last year sounds good to me…I just got to say that unless we fans are gonna date sheep in the future ,we better take the wool off our heads! Everyone in the NHL is responsible for this mess and are greedy = at our expense”like the year the EXPOS WERE GONNA WIN IT ALL…fk!” No Hockey….Screw You!

  33. habs-fan-84 says:

    why is this a question?
    of course everyone will comeback.

  34. habsfan0 says:

    If entire 2012-13 season is lost to a lockout(hopefully not) what will draft order be at June 2013 draft?

  35. habs-fan-84 says:

    I couldn’t care less who “wins” or “loses” I just want to see some hockey.

    I do however find it funny that the owners have allowed their GMs to spend like drunken sailors …..and NOW they want to roll back salaries. At the end of the day though who cares! I/we have no skin in the game. Personally I just want to see some NHL hockey come October.

    • wjc says:

      Both sides will win, no one will lose. They are not spending like drunken sailors they all live by spending budgets and restraints.

      You will see NHL hockey come October. The owners only want a bigger slice of the revenue pie. Bettman has put the NHL in good shape and the owners want it to be split more even.

      If anything the did too good of a job selling the NHL. NBC are televising the games all over the U.S.A. with teams that Americans can identify with. After all Canadan already supports and loves the game and now they want American to do the same.

      Do you think the southern states give a hoot about Buffalo, Ottawa, or Winnepeg.

      Look at the NFL and then you will see what they are trying to accomplish.

      wjc

      • Rozz says:

        First Gomez Cheer leading… now Bettman cheer leading? Wow you have hit a new low.. even for you.

        …But ya, your right… Bettman is just about the best thing that has ever happened to hockey .. well besides the birth of Gomez into our plain of existence so we can all marvel in his divine hockey awesomeness… right?

        I think someone’s been forgetting his meds again… well that or got into someone else’s

        “When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.”

        Mark Twain.

        • wjc says:

          Keep talking, you are revealing yourself. What did I do to push you to the abys. Was it my opinion is different then yours.

          You do not bother me, I find you entertaining, keep up the good work. You put me in a good mood. I see the world a little differently then you. If you could listen and debate instead of name calling it might not be as much fun.

          You my friend are a pleasure to converse with. Peace.

          wjc

          • Rozz says:

            oh no! not revealing myself!!! NOOOO!!!!!!!! lol I’m glad I can amuse you cause you definitely amuse me with your attempts at some reverse psychology.. priceless!

            “When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.”

            Mark Twain.

  36. HardHabits says:

    Hockey is not an essential product. No NHL hockey. My life goes on. If I really need a fix I will watch the AHL or the Juniors. I’ll even start to follow some of the European and Russian leagues if need be.

    Really I could care less. It doesn’t affect my life. Now if the hockey players or the owners were blocking traffic or disrupting the Metro service then maybe I’d be interested. Until then let them have their little squabble. As far as I see it the players should hold out and tell Bettman and the league to go stuff themselves.

    When the NHL comes back, I’ll be back too. Take your time boys. No rush. Do it right.

    • joeybarrie says:

      I think by the amount of posts you submit, that your statement of “Really I could care less” is not fully factual.
      I would be very sad if there is no NHL hockey, cause my team plays in the NHL…

      • Mr.Bell says:

        what team do you play for?

        Once a Habs fan Always a Habs fan! GO HABS GO!

        • wjc says:

          Once a habs fan always a Habs fan…..not necessarily. You can drift away….takes 21 days to break a habit.

          I once followed the Expo’s inning by inning, knew all the players, knew the stats of each player, followed the National league.

          Once the players started demanding too much money I decided to try and break the spell it had on me.

          I deliberately stopped looking, reading etc. It was hard the urge to take a peak was overwelming , but, surprise, surprise as time went on I lost all interest and now wonder why it had such a hold on me.

          Did the same with the Canadiens, just pulled away and after 3 weeks or so had lost track and interest. My son started cheering for them and I came back, but I know I can leave if I want.

          wjc

          • Rozz says:

            ahh .. the truth comes out bit by bit.. you’re a fair weather fan at best.. and I’m gonna guess when you say you “Pulled away” what you really mean to be saying is “I was always really a leaf fan and only joined this site to be a troll cause I don’t actually give a S*** about this team one bit”

            but you know your right about one thing … I bet you could easily leave again if you want… sooooooo… wanna do us a favour and leave already?

            “When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.”

            Mark Twain.

      • HardHabits says:

        Fully. Frackin’. Factually. NHL Hockey is Scarlett O’Hara to my Rhett Butler.

        • wjc says:

          Cheers Rozz. Actually I am a hockey fan and have probably been following the Habs longer then you have been alive.

          Hated it when the Leafs dominated the Habs in the early 60’s and upset the Habs in 67. I am not addicted to Hockey in an unhealthy way. It does not make me shake with anger and frustration. I hate to see them lose of course, but can take the bigger view.

          Hating players that wear the sweater never appealed to me. I might leave again, not sure, if I start to feel an unhealthy obsession with the Canadiens I might pull back…time will tell.

          wjc

    • wjc says:

      Interesting that you would call hockey “a fix”, like a junkie. You need to withdraw and take the pain and then realize that you should be free of all addictions.

      You say players should tell Bettman to shove it. That would be like going to your banker with one payment to go and saying take this house and shove it….I am unhappy with your service.

      Not going to happen.

      Owners own….players play…..you want to be an owner, raise the capital with a million of your friends and buy a team. Then give the lions share of your revenues to the players. The stars that bring in fans, you get that money back. The 15 or so bottom end players not so much.

      You would say me and my million friends (investors) want at least an even split……..seems logical to me.

      wjc

      • Rozz says:

        Interesting how you use a word like “logical” to describe your point of view.. clearly you lack the understand of what the word means. allow me to enlighten you, the only way you should be using the logical to refer to anything you have written is by preceding it with an “Il” .. like wjc is know for having a very illogical point of view..

        savy?

        “When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.”

        Mark Twain.

        • wjc says:

          All I can say Rozz old boy is, you shouldn’t be talking to illogical people. What do you care what an illogical person thinks, feels or says. That’s illogical.

          Rozz, I am becoming quite fond of you in a manly sort of way.

          wjc

          • Rozz says:

            awe I’m touched! … wait.. you’re not talking like man on man sort of way are you? I mean there’s nothing wrong with that and I’m flattered but your definitely barking up the wrong tree if you know what I mean :D

            “When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.”

            Mark Twain.

  37. NCRhabsfan says:

    The whole discussion is about two six hundred pound men (the NHL and the NHLPA) with their bibs on, knives and forks in hand, saliva dripping from their chins, eyeing a one thousand pound pig (the fans) and trying to decide how to get the biggest slice of meat. Bettman is wrong; they see the world in exactly the same way. They both want the same thing, the biggest piece of our flesh they can get. A pox on both their houses.

  38. John Q Public says:

    NO!!!

    Simple as that.

  39. Habitforming says:

    “Would hockey fans forgive and forget another lockout?”

    Only if the Habs hold a lottery spot for McKinnon

  40. twilighthours says:

    I like Gary’s intemperate use of the word “world.”

  41. accp says:

    It doesn’t matter if the teams a locked out or your city has a lousy team the fans will always support them.
    Go to a game in Montreal or Toronto on a Saturday night and see how many seats are empty. Do you actually think they’re good teams? I need not say more…..

  42. kejaed says:

    First the habs move my family’s brick a couple years after it goes in the ground to build more freakin condos and now millionaires are arguing over a million here or there when 2 peole would be lucky to get out of a habs game for under $200.

    If these jokers pull this crap again i’ll gladly drop $50 at a junior game and live like a king and have a good show. Watch for a YouTube video with some habs junk on fire if these guys don’t get their act together in time. It’s not like the end of the agreement snuck up on anyone.

  43. novahab says:

    The cups belongs to Canada and I say lets take it and go home. Gary ( the crook) Bettman has done nothing but turn this league into a fixed. So let have our Canadians teams start our own league.
    west division Vancouver,Calgary, Edmonton,Winnipeg and Regina.
    Central Toronto,Hamilton,London,Ottawa and Kitchener,
    East Montreal, Quebec, Halifax , Monton and St john.

    • nickster13 says:

      Thats what we should have done all along. Canada should be running the show, with USA secondary. Not the vice versa like right now.

      “I don’t wanna see Maurice tonight, I want the rocket!”

    • boing007 says:

      Looks good. Fifteen teams in Canada, fifteen in the USA. Fighting it out for the Stanely Cup.

      Richard R
      Price is an oyster. Unfortunately not all oysters produce pearls.

  44. novahab says:

    So can the KHL offer contracts to the the NHL biggest stars. Can they sign them to long term contract keeping them away from the NHL. If the NHL locks out the players is their contact nill and void.

  45. mrhabby says:

    When the nba was locked out the demand for games went through the roof after they settled….

    You can bet the owners in alot of the states have compared the money they take in vs what they have to pay out during the fall months…seems to me some of the owners might want to take the fall off given the nfl and college football is right around the corner.

  46. homerbowen says:

    I feel the owners clearly have the hammer here and it is obvious they intend to use it again. The last agreement had significant gains for the owners, however, it became evident there were a number of loopholes discovered once into that agreement. Now they are going to correct those loopholes. Sad to see but the hammer is quite big.

  47. commandant says:

    Fans will forgive and forget, it might take time, but we will; its what we do.

    And both sides know that.

    Go Habs Go!
    Check out Top Shelf Prospects, my Team by Team prospect reports
    http://lastwordonsports.com/

  48. Mavid says:

    of course I would go back to watching as soon as they started playing…you have to be kidding…cannot imagine life without hockey..I don’t want to think about a lockout..oh and Buttman is a dork..

  49. Is this really a question? Was 2005 so long ago that we don’t remember?

    What we learned from the last lockout is that although it pissed off all the fans it also created pent up demand from not having hockey for so long which actually ended up being a net positive for NHL revenues IMO.

    the same thing will happen this time…everyone will complain about the lockout but we’ll all be back the next season…it might take a month or 2 or 5 for some fans but they will all eventually come back…

    Telio

    The greatest Canadiens and NHL news-site: http://teliopost.com/

    On Twitter: @teliopost

  50. cuzzie says:

    With lockout all but certain. Will Bulldogs play more games at the Bell Centre?

    Stay Thirsty My Friends!

  51. savethepuck says:

    I had a hard time reading the TSN article about Bettman’s response to the NHLPA’s proposal. Maybe I’m a tad biased whenever he gives an opinion because I have no respect for his condescending attitude, but every sentence I read, all I’m thinking is he’s another tiny man in power trying to prove he at least has (deleted). He gives the impression that any ideas coming from anywhere else but him, are pointless and not relevent to the situation. Maybe the owners gave him his big extension because they feel he represents their best interests, but I wish someone was in his position that could at least give the slighest resemblance that they gave a crap about our game. The fans are the reason they are able to fight over the Billions of dollars, let’s get rid of the the egos and get it done.

    “They don’t hang Conference Championship Banners from the rafters here”
    Carey Price

    • HabinBurlington says:

      Read it in a similar context, and agree on the tone being condescending. Regardless of how smart he may be, when his mouth opens I dislike what I hear.

  52. HabFab says:

    Stu’s latest on the CBA negotiations and more details on the NHLPA “alternate view”.
    http://nhl-red-light.si.com/2012/08/15/nhlpa-seeks-cooperation-in-cba-talks/

  53. EasternOntarioHabsFan says:

    Wow, I post an epic win of a comment on the other page just as a new one is started?????

    curse my bad luck!!!!!!!!

  54. joeybarrie says:

    I doubt very much there will be a lockout.
    I dont know how far back that would set the NHL again.
    Neither side wants that.
    And until there is actually an agreement, of course neither side will say, oh yeah we are real close…

    I say done deal by the deadline.

    OH YEAH………….. FIRST.

  55. wjc says:

    The players are getting their fair share, the problem is Bettman did such a good job growing the revenue’s.

    Now the players are taking too much, good for them, but if I am an owner I say…..FIX IT!!!

    Sure they risk their limbs, always have, always will, that is why so many just don’t have the stomach for it.

    You want to play, you have to take your chances. Most of the brothers in the Union will not deliberitely hurt another player. There are just a small miniority that take it too far.

    The players are getting a unfair amount of the slice and it has to be fixed. It is a win/win for both. The fans can stay and pay or leave, it is there choice.

    wjc

  56. Rozz says:

    now, I know I see the words you have written here.. but some how when I read them all they seem to be saying is

    “Blah blah blah i’m a leaf loving troll, blah blah blah Go Gomez Go, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah Go! Leafs! Go!”

    is it just me or does any one else get this problem when reading wjc’s post’s?

    “When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.”

    Mark Twain.

  57. HankHardball says:

    Like it or not, the agreement Fehr negotiated with MLB when he was their player rep, over time has turned out to be the most financially advantageous system for both players and owners, of all four North American major pro sports leagues.

    And MLB has had labour peace ever since. I’m not saying MLB’s system would work best for the NHL. But it proves Fehr’s intentions are honourable.

    But in the NHL’s case, Bettman’s obstinance would seem to indicate the owners are committed to a lockout until probably, Jan.1, 2013.

  58. HankHardball says:

    Fehr didn’t object to realignment or Winnipeg’s move to the west. He objected to Bettman’s attempt to arbitrarily enforce an issue that should have been part of the CBA negotiations.

    By removing it from the CBA negotiations, Bettman was trying to take a bargaining chip away from the players. Fehr refused to allow him to do that. That’s all he did.

    Realignment will happen and Winnipeg will move to the west. But it will be done under the proper circumstances.

  59. Habfan17 says:

    Apparently not all of the superstars need it! If I am Fehr, I tell the players that they need to stand together and not accept offers to play elsewhere during the lockout. Some will be losing money while others will not suffer at all. So much for caring about your fellow player and the good of all!!

    Habfan17

  60. Un Canadien errant says:

    Agree 100%. If Gary Bettman had been treating the players as partners, this one issue could have been agreed to within the old CBA. Instead, the players rightly refused to agree to the owners’ plan for realignment that meant most teams would have to travel more, not less as they would have preferred.

    Same deal with drug testing or changing equipment. The PA doesn’t trust the owners, and won’t agree to anything unless it’s within the confines of a full Collective Bargaining Agreement negotiation.

    ———————————————————————–
    This isn’t “Billionaires vs. Millionaires.” Only a willfully uninformed fool would apply that sloppy shorthand designation to this disgraceful power grab crafted by some of the wealthiest individuals and corporate entities in North America aimed against professional athletes.–Larry Brooks of the New York Post

    http://relentlessineptitude.blogspot.com/


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