Subban No. 23 in THN’s top-50 player rankings; Price No. 48

The Hockey News has come out with its 2013-14 Yearbook in which it rates “The best 50 players in the NHL now.”

Two Canadiens made the list: defenceman P.K. Subban at No. 23 and goalie Carey Price at No. 48.

In its season predictions, THN has the Canadiens finishing fourth in the Atlantic Division behind Boston, Detroit and Ottawa and lists the Habs’ odds of winning the Stanley Cup at 23-1. The “X-Factor” for the Canadiens: “Most of the teams in the Canadiens’ division have upgraded in the off-season, but Montreal will remain in the playoff hunt if Price proves he’s an elite goaltender.”

THN has Pittsburgh and St. Louis meeting in the Stanley Cup final, with the Blues coming out on top.

The top 10 in the top-50 player rankings are, in order: Sidney Crosby, Alex Ovechkin, Steven Stamkos, Erik Karlsson, John Tavares, Jonathan Toews, Evgeni Malkin, Patrick Kane, Patrice Bergeron and Drew Doughty.

Other players ranked ahead of Subban are, in order: Pavel Datsyuk, Martin St. Louis, Jonathan Quick, Duncan Keith, Zdeno Chara, Claude Giroux, Ryan Sutter, Jeff Carter, Jason Spezza, Taylor Hall, Eric Staal and Anze Kopitar.

“The 2013 Norris Trophy winner won on the strength of his offensive and physical tools,” THN writes about Subban. “Now he has to show he can play the truly hard minutes like the penalty kill and log big ice time.”

Six goalies are ranked ahead of Price: Quick (No. 13), Henrik Lundqvist (24), Tuukka Rask (31), Sergei Bobrovsky (35), Craig Anderson (36) and Corey Crawford (38).

“Once considered the frontrunner for the No. 1 job with Canada’s Olympic team, Price needs to have a rebound season,” THN writes.

The magazine also has an article on Alex Galchenyuk under the headline “Centre of attention” speculating whether the teenager will be moved to his natural centre position this season from the wing.

“It’s a difficult position for a young player,” GM Marc Bergevin says of Galchenyuk playing centre. “We didn’t want to put a lot of pressure on him. We used him at centre (in the 2013 season) on a few occasions and he did a good job, but we feel that, for the time being, he’s better off on the wing.”

Subban announced on his Twitter account Sunday that “I am now officially on Instagram!” Price, who turned 26 on Aug. 16, will get married to his fiancée, Angela Webber, on Aug. 24.

(Photo by Justin K. Aller/Getty Images)

 

316 Comments

  1. frontenac1 says:

    Soccer? Tried watching it, I really did,just like Crickets, it doesn’t do it for me amigos,but Vive Le Difference! Saludos!

  2. The Jackal says:

    I would not rank Price behind Anderson. The latter is a journeyman goalie that has had flash in the pan numbers then reverted to mediocrity. He benefited from Ottawa’s solid D and team play but was exposed when shooters went high. Moreover, when his D collapsed, he was not able to make clutch saves.

    Compare Price and Anderson’s careers and you can clearly see that Price is better. Being a media publication, I’m sure THN focused on recent events, nevertheless Anderson’s play of late cannot yet be deemed a consistent state of affairs. Should he perform equally or better this season, then we can at best say he has an upward trend.

    On the other hand, Price has been consistently good, putting up strong numbers behind average, undersized defensive squads while stopping high percentage chances and being clutch.

    Nonetheless, some critics cite soft goals and recent struggles as evidence that he is not a good goalie. Of course these criticisms are wrong, as the supposed evidence of poor performance can be applied to any goalie, since they all suffer from similar struggles. Every goalie lets in stinkers and has bad stretches, yet that does not detract from their talent. Price, and other good goalies, have proven that these struggles are exceptions to the rule, and thus this evidence is not really telling of a goalie’s worth.

    Price has been reliable since making the NHL, and every GM would take him over Anderson and possibly over the other goalies on the list.

  3. commandant says:

    PK is absolutely JACKED right now, he tweeted the following.

    http://instagram.com/p/dKUhKiBmrv/#

    Go Habs Go!
    Your 2013 NHL Draft Headquarters, Now Open.
    http://lastwordonsports.com/

  4. Sportfan says:

    Newest article for last word ! Ichiro to hit a Milestone!
    http://lastwordonsports.com/2013/08/18/ichiro-seeking-major-milestone/

    Sports and Entertainment in the link click and enjoy, clicking is fun!
    http://nickolaisblog.wordpress.com/

  5. habs11s says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkvvLaweWvc

    Pumped up yet?!

    _____________________________________________________________

    “How would you like a job where when you made a mistake, a big red light goes on and 18,000 people boo?” -Jacques Plante

  6. ProHabs says:

    For those who have not read what happened the night of the Beaulieu arrests, here is the story.
    http://www.lfpress.com/2013/08/14/former-sarnia-sting-coach-jacques-beaulieu-and-nathan-beaulieu-granted-conditional-discharges

    Are you kidding me. Are Nathan and Jacques a couple of ragging alcoholics. Who acts like this. Hopefully Nathan brings some of this tough-guy attitude against the Bruins.

    • Phil C says:

      This was discussed ad nauseam in the previous thread.

    • commandant says:

      This is what the prosecuting lawyer says what happened on the night of the Beaulieu arrests.

      Go Habs Go!
      Your 2013 NHL Draft Headquarters, Now Open.
      http://lastwordonsports.com/

    • HabCez says:

      If this is what really happened.. lost all respect for Nathan and his dad. Although they pleaded guilty, hopefully Nathan will make some public statement and hear his side of the story. I like character but this is one character trait I’m no fan of. I think Parros should pay them a visit.

      There is no denying his skill. I can see him playing this year with the habs but not in the penalty box.

      “Emelin’s the real deal.”
      - HabCez

  7. Renegade says:

    @Chris Good post, enjoyed reading it. Good to see a retort to another comment without name calling and insults.

  8. on2ndthought says:

    Just to reply to the poster who said we pay Price like he’s the No. 1 goalie in the NHL:

    http://www.sportscity.com/nhl-salaries-2012-13-top-20-salaries-for-goalies/2012/11/17/

    He’s ninth on this list, and Rask has leap-frogged him. IMO, he has not peaked yet, but we are getting as much value from Price as any goalie in the league.

    “a cannonading drive”

    • Phil C says:

      Nice to bring facts to the argument.

      Price’s contract was also signed right before they rolled back the cap by 10% or so. The players opted not to take a salary roll back so contracts like Price’s are probably slightly higher than they should be. This will correct itself in a few seasons.

      As well, salaries are determined by market value, not performance as the previous poster suggests. MB had to offer Price enough to entice him to avoid free agency, which he did. I am pretty sure Price would get at least $6.5M as a UFA, so that’s what you have pay if you want him.

  9. frontenac1 says:

    @Ian, me too. He was a rugged QB with a pretty good arm. It will be interesting to see if Heisman winner Troy Smith can adapt to the Cdn.game.

  10. Un Canadien errant says:

    ***Spoiler Alert***

    In preparation for tonight’s “Breaking Bad” episode, here is the closing scene from last week’s installment. Can’t wait.

    Do not click on the link and view if you aren’t fully caught up to the series yet.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DSiPhJ_pGk&feature

    • Hobie Hansen says:

      Looking forward to it. One of the the few shows I’ve ever “really” gotten into. Breaking Bad is the first show since the Sopranos that I’ve been utterly hooked on. The Walking Dead doesn’t quite have the acting and plot of Breaking Bad but it’s good entertainment as well.

      • Un Canadien errant says:

        Yeah, I watch “The Walking Dead”, but agree with you, the plot is much thinner, and it’s hard to see where they’re going to take it. I read the graphic novels so I have an idea, but where can they take it?

        • ZepFan2 says:

          I enjoy TWD. I also like the Killing,GoT, HoW, Dexter, Orphan Black. Also watching Broadchurch with David Tennant. It’s sort of like the Killing set in Scotland.

          ———————————————————————-
          Ka is a wheel.

          “On we sweep, with threshing oar.
          Our only goal will be the Stanley Cup!” – Danno

          For Your Life

    • ZepFan2 says:

      “Tread lightly”

      ———————————————————————-
      Ka is a wheel.

      “On we sweep, with threshing oar.
      Our only goal will be the Stanley Cup!” – Danno

      For Your Life

      • Un Canadien errant says:

        Great, great line. Loved how Hank reacted to it. Powerful scene between both actors/characters.

        • ZepFan2 says:

          Actually, the whole line is great…

          “If you know who I am, tread lightly”.

          Hank got his first glimpse of Heisenberg.

          ———————————————————————-
          Ka is a wheel.

          “On we sweep, with threshing oar.
          Our only goal will be the Stanley Cup!” – Danno

          For Your Life

  11. frontenac1 says:

    @Ian. Hola amigo! McPherson is playing in the Arena League stateside.

  12. Ian Cobb says:

    Summit News!!
    Everyone is welcome to join us at any of our events. Even if you have your own game tickets or you are not going to the game.
    But PLEASE! everyone must let me know, so that I request enough reservations for US.
    People that are getting game tickets from me, let me know if you are or are NOT going to the Baton Rouge Raffle Banquet or the Breakfast please.

    Also, the Novotel hotel informs me that there are about 10 rooms left at the HIO discount rate. 1 to 4 nights.

    ITINERARY & LOCATIONS
    We are staying at the Novotel hotel, discount rates at 866-861-6112 Tell them you are with HIO to get your discount.

    We will all meet and greet at Hurley’s pub Friday eve. on Crescent St.
    Some of us will be having supper there, and name tags will be given out.
    Everyone is welcome to join us. Wear you team colors! and enjoy the evening.

    Saturday morning, breakfast is at Chez Cora’s at 8:30am. 1240 Drummond St.
    You can order a la cart and everyone gets 15% discount off your bill.

    After breakfast we walk over to the Bell Center for the Hall of Fame and Bell Center Tour.

    At 3pm the Montreal Canadiens Children’s Foundation Charity Raffle at the Baton Rouge restaurant 1050 Mountain St.
    A couple of special guests will be joining us there.

    Each person is asked to bring one gift item to donate for the charity raffle, so everyone gets a gift to go home with.
    After this years fund raiser, we will have donated over $10,000 to different children’s charities. This year we are supporting the Montreal Canadiens Children Foundation.

    Then our wonderful Baton Rouge Restaurant pre game dinner.

    After dinner we walk across the street to the Bell Center and Hab’s game.

    After the game the 2nd floor of Hurley’s pub is reserved for us again, to celebrate the win. Anyone may join us, just identify yourself as a HIO member.

    Please be generous with your charity raffle gifts and your purchase of raffle tickets. It is a way for the HIO community to give back to less fortunate kids.

    Everything is walking distance, so park your car for the weekend.
    Enjoy talking hockey and meeting your wonderful HIO community at this years Summit.

    Summit game tickets, News, Pictures and comments
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Montreal-Canadiens-We-Are-Fans-Summit/197390760316125

  13. frontenac1 says:

    Was out fishing yesterday and missed the Als game. Read that AC left the game with a possible conky? Guess Troy Smith will be fast tracked now. Did Anwar Stewart play?

    • Ian Cobb says:

      Stewart did not play. Anthony fell backwards and bumped his head on the ground. Did not seem to be very hard, but with a history of concussion, they are attained very easily.
      I would like to know where McPhearson went to.?

  14. HabFab says:

    Ms Gretzky is getting married it seems. I guess no more public viewings for us. Timo, tell me it ain’t so!!!!!!!

    And try to get her name and links thru the HIO system…

  15. Timo says:

    Mavid, count please.

  16. frontenac1 says:

    There’s Lies, Damned Lies, and then Statistics amigos.

  17. JTT says:

    Training Camp Lines

    Bourque Plekanec Briere
    Pacioretty Galchenyuk Gallagher
    Eller Desharnais Gionta
    Moen/Parros White Prust

  18. 24 Cups says:

    I’m not sure how anyone can rank the top fifty players in the NHL when you consider all three positions on the ice. How do you compare the value of a goalie up against a forward? Here’s my line-up.

    Forwards – Crosby, Stamkos, Malkin, Ovechkin, Tavares, Datsyuk, Toews, Giroux and St Louis

    Dmen – Keith, Chara, Subban and Weber

    Golaies – Lundqvist and Quick

    Bergeron as the 9th best player in the NHL? Give me a break.

    • The Cat says:

      I agree with your list, I know many will bark but I would put Krejci in the top in the Giroux/St.Louis company. Bruins are nothing without that guy. If I were a GM, Id try and snatch that guy up like nobody’s business.

      [Disclaimer]: I’m a hockey fan. I care about the habs, but probably not as much as you.

  19. frontenac1 says:

    Anybody catch the Canada vs USA rugby match last night? Good to see Canada win 27-9. Started watching Rugby when my son took it up in highschool, but I still need him around to explain all the rules. Great game! Go Canada!

    • Strabo says:

      Sure did, it was nice to see them put it to the Yanks. I loved it when the Ref was talking to the American about the lineouts. Told them the same thing he said to the Canadian player. The American player was disagreeing. The Ref said “right next time your out, Cheers then.” The Canadian player was very polite and took it all in stride. What a difference in cultures.

      “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former.” Albert Einstein

      • Un Canadien errant says:

        I keep worrying that once the US figure it out, with their population and their athletic depth and potential, they’ll bury us in rugby, but it never seems to take.

        I remember a game at least 10 years ago, they’d gotten a couple of ex-basketball players, they were 6’8″ or something, and they were brand new to the game but were meant to dominate in the lineouts. And they did okay in that game, but we won, and I don’t think I ever heard from those guys again.

  20. Hobie Hansen says:

    So Price is ranked as the 7th best goalie in the league. If all these Price haters got their way and ran Price out of town, do they think the situation in goal would actually improve?

    I don’t think we’d be replacing him with one of the six in front of him on the list?

  21. Small_Town_Boy says:

    Craig Anderson? Really?

    He had one great season in how many NHL seasons?

    Dat’s wha me tinks

  22. SlovakHab says:

    Like punkster, The Cat and other people below have said: THN’s rankings are to be taken with a grain of salt.
    I don’t see any reason to give them any higher weight than any amateur blogger posting their opinion.

    They have been repeatedly very inaccurate in hindsight.

    • Marc says:

      Just like Scott Cullen on TSN’s website, they state the following: “Now he has to show he can play the truly hard minutes like the penalty kill and log big ice time.” Don’t these people watch any Habs games?! Subban played massive minutes and was a regular on the PK. Duh!

      ———————————————————————————————————————-
      If a man speaks in a forest where no woman can hear him, is he still wrong?

      • Un Canadien errant says:

        I think it’s inevitable that the generalists don’t know individual teams as well as their rabid fans do. A couple years ago, a Sportsnet hack was running down the list of players who might be moved at the trade deadline, and he explained that Mikhail Grabovski might be dealt to the Predators, since there was a great fit there for him, it was a great landing spot. To which I barked at my screen, since we all know how the Kostitsyn-Grabovski rift is what caused him to be traded in the first place. I knew that, but this guy didn’t even know it, even if it concerned the two Canadian teams with the largest following.

        So yeah, they won’t be up on the details, the background of why P.K. had some oddly reduced minutes in some circumstances, they’ll just look at the stats and create an opinion from that.

        • JF says:

          I think the Kostitsyn-Grabovski rift actually happened after Grabovski was traded. Grabovski was dissatisfied with his ice-time and missed the plane on one of the Habs’ western road trips. He was traded after that season.

          • Un Canadien errant says:

            I’m fuzzy on the details, I thought those three couldn’t get along before he got dealt.

  23. Un Canadien errant says:

    Hello all, I tried to post a fiery but brief response to Chris’ assignment of Zdeno Chara as the 5th best NHL’er, but couldn’t keep it under 2500 words, so the Gremlins wouldn’t let me post it. I have a copy if you click on the link below.

    http://relentlessineptitude.blogspot.ca/2013/08/zdeno-chara-is-no-longer-dominant.html

    Bad Chris! No! Bruins, caca! Pas dans ta bouche!

    • Chris says:

      There is no team I hate more than the Bruins, although the Flyers come close. I also disliked the Pacioretty incident. I’m not as down on the Crosby thing as that kind of stuff is sadly “part of the game” with NHL players…Crosby recently said that himself.

      On his shot, it is still the biggest bomb in the league, bar none. The difference is that everybody knows that he has a bomb and so the PK works entirely around taking that bomb away from the Bruins. Chara has reacted by often being down in the crease screening the goalie. Montreal got a taste of that medicine when Subban and Markov started to be played VERY aggressively by the forwards on good penalty kills. The result was a lot of frustration.

      Subban’s shot now has enough reputation that he is going to start seeing the same coverage every game that Chara has faced for the past decade. Maintaining his goal totals will be tough, as Shea Weber has discovered. Subban only got 12 points at even-strength last year…take away his time and space on the PP, and his points could easily dry up.

      On toughness, I think you sort of made my point. Randy Carlyle felt it necessary to play Colton Orr 6-8 minutes per game against Chara. Bob Gainey played Georges Laraque against Chara. Any time that you’ve got the opposing coach juggling his lines to get a goon out against you, you’re a game-changer because those guys are not going to score goals. Teams change their game plan against Chara, trying to be something they’re not. Pittsburgh was trying to initiate contact against him every chance they got, and Montreal frequently tries to be the initiator against the Bruins. The result is great for the Bruins, as they WANT other teams to play that style and not run-and-gun.

      Here are some of the things that were left out. Boston has been, without question, the best defensive team in hockey post-lockout (with a blip here or there). In the past 5 seasons, they have finished 3rd, 6th, 2nd, 2nd, and 1st in team goals against. Chara, who plays 25-30 minutes per game against the best players on the other team, gets a big share of the credit if we’re being fair.

      Chara looked more mortal this past season, although he was far better than you gave him credit for in the post-season (3 goals and 15 points in 22 games). Nobody had a busier off-season: Chara played for Slovakia in the World Championships, he is very busy advocating for Right to Play and he logged huge travel miles as he was there front-and-centre for the NHLPA’s media sessions despite playing in the KHL for Prague. I’d like to see what he can do with a full season, as he was one of those guys who kept getting better as the season wore on. In that respect, he reminded me of Ovechkin, who was also front-and-centre, racking up huge travel miles, and who also got off to a slow start this season.

      All I know is that if I have a 3-2 lead at the end of a game, the defencemen I want on the ice are Zdeno Chara and Shea Weber.

      If I am trailing 3-2 at the end of a game, the defencemen I want on the ice are Chara and Weber.

      Killing penalties, the power play, matched up against the best of the best, trailing, leading…I will take those two guys over every other defenceman in the NHL.

      • piper says:

        +1.
        Chara is a big, mean, dirty SOB but IMO he’s still the best D-man in the league.

      • Un Canadien errant says:

        In the spirit of healthy discussion, I’ll continue our exchange with a couple of quick thoughts.

        His shot is big and heavy and record-breaking at the All-Star game, but ultimately ineffective. Kind of like P.K.’s last season; he had a rocket, but it would end up in the glass, metres wide of the net, his forwards were unwilling to stand in front of the net for fear of getting nailed in the ear. This season, P.K. reined it in, got some leadership and direction and good examples to work with from Andrei, and he gets it through screens and on the net, and scored. Somehow Mr. Chara’s shot doesn’t find the mark as often as it should. And if he’s covered that diligently, it should open up his teammates on the powerplay and it should be more effective, and he’d rack up assists, but the results are tepid in that area as well.

        As far as his physical tools and strength, I agreed with you, even though it makes me gag that you compare him to Larry Robinson. Larry played fair, and he hit clean. They’re in different galaxies in that regard. Plus, when Larry dropped the gloves, he was more effective, bettering noted goons like Dave Schultz, whereas Zdeno Chara is more of a wrestler. Ask Brian McCabe.

        Anyway, when I brought up that Colton Orr and Brian Bickell were assigned to hammering him whenever possible, you thought that it proved your point about his physical dominance, a point I already conceded. But I take it a different way. I see teams deciding to bodycheck him as a sign that he’s not impregnable anymore. The dam is sprouting a few leaks.

  24. Un Canadien errant says:

    Chris, I thought I’d reply here to your post at 4:38, from your original post at 1:14, here at the top of the thread. My objection isn’t that Zdeno Chara is not a great player, I’ll grudgingly admit that, but that you rate him at #5 in your ranking of all NHL players, and first among defencemen.

    I’ll admit that it’s very difficult for me to be objective about him, first because he’s a Bruin, and second because of his psychopathic-criminal behaviour on the ice. There is the mendacious explanations after his great crimes too, he’s in a league with Andrew Ference in that department. After his botched assassination of Max Pacioretty, he tried to pretend that he didn’t know who he was driving head first into the glass with a butt-end, and that he wasn’t even aware where he was on the ice. When he got caught on video deviously yet brazenly slugging Sidney Crosby right in his surgically-repaired jaw, the very first game that Sid played after removing his face shield, he dissembled, and tried to argue with the reporter questioning him, challenging him to prove that it was his arm doing the punching. These are the ravings of a deeply troubled, insecure man who is a menace to others and himself.

    Further, that his behaviours have been tacitly endorsed by the NHL has harmed his reputation. A lot of the furor about these incidents is due to the fact that he got off scot-free. If he’d been given a token suspension, most people would have resigned themselves that it was concordant with the NHL’s already dubious record of effective discipline in incidents like these, and would have moved on. In fact, by looking the other way and enabling him and the Bruins, they didn’t allow him to wipe the slate clean. He still wears his crimes and is diminished by them, instead of being absolved of them, he’s almost like O.J. walking around a free man after the ‘Not Guilty’ verdict.

    Another difficulty I have with evaluating his play is that I can’t be objective about him while he’s playing either. I block my ears and chant “La la la la la la …” when an announcer waxes elegiac on what a sportsman he is, a competitor, blah blah blah, I stop listening. And when I don’t actively ignore him on the ice, I watch for instances when he fails and his team gets scored on and he looks all downcast and despondent while I dance a jig in my living room and high-five my poster of Yvon Lambert. So I don’t follow him throughout a game and try to objectively, critically evaluate him, like I would with Dustin Byfuglien or Drew Doughty or Martin St. Louis. I’m just ready to criticize him, at the drop of a puck.

    So with that disclaimer, I’ll still argue that to rate Zdeno Chara #5 on your list of top NHL players is much, much too high, in 2013. There may have been a time four or five years ago when he was that good, but not no more. No way no how. With any parameter you use. Not with “The player I’d most like to start building a franchise with…”, he’s too old. Not with point production, he’s easily outclassed by a handful of other defencemen in that department. Not with all-around excellence, he scuffles and boots the play too often these last couple of seasons.

    The icetime argument is problematic. While it’s a good indicator, it’s not as precise as we’d like, since it’s influenced by factors like coaching decisions, and the quality of the rest of the defencemen. If your #3-6 defencemen are pretty good, you don’t need to rely so much on your #1 and won’t deploy him quite as much as if they stunk. Using P.K. as another illustration, his icetime didn’t match the quality of his play, but there were reasons why the coaching staff did that. That doesn’t mean to me that he played less excellently than Zdeno Chara last season, quite the contrary. Mr. Chara regularly goofed or gaffed or tripped or got caught out of position or lost a corner battle in the few games I watched him play, whereas P.K.’s mistakes were few and far between. I remember the one OT game when he went for a big hit in the neutral zone and lost the game as a result, but that’s maybe it. So the fact that he had more icetime than P.K. doesn’t mean to me that he’s better.

    His great size is another reason trotted out to claim that he’s the best defenceman, and at one time that may have been true. He was unbelievably big and strong, and his long reach changed passing lanes, but I think now it’s starting to play against him. He can’t anymore overcome the obstacles faced by a man of his great bulk when it comes to agility or mobility. He’s regularly outskated and caught flat-footed now.

    Randy Johnson was another player whose freakish size presented great challenges to the opposition, in terms of velocity and release angle and movement on the ball. It was also a great challenge to him, in that it took him a comparative long time to get his big body coordinated and under control. Once he did, he was a dominant pitcher for years, until age slowly caught up to him, he lost a little something off his fastball, injuries crept in, and he wasn’t as effective anymore. Still freakishly big, still intimidating as all heck, but not the Cy Young winner he had been.

    Manute Bol is a further example of a player whose height presented other teams with a great difficulty. I’m not basketball expert, but the story was that at 7’7″, he presented opposition shooters with a problem they’d never been faced with. His long arms interdicted certain shots, either in terms of blocks, or in ensuring that a shot wasn’t even attempted. Teams would set up as usual, pass the ball around and get to a point where usually they’d have a makeable shot, but Mr. Bol’s presence in the paint prevented that, and thwarted what they’d normally do. Again, however, once injuries limited his mobility even further, they found a way to work around that, and his effectiveness became even more limited.

    So the fact that Zdeno Chara is tall and big isn’t enough for us to just outright him the Norris Trophy. Sure, he’s still a formidable challenge, but it’s a solvable problem.

    One way Goliath can be slain is with a slew of Davids who skate him into the ground, outracing him to the puck, and stickhandling around him, darting to where he ain’t, making him move. We’ve seen that a lot from the Canadiens, from Brian Gionta and David Desharnais and Tomas Plekanec and others, who run circles around him and confuse him and tie him up in knots in his own gangly limbs. This has always been the case, but lately he has seemed even more vulnerable to that attack.

    More surprisingly, the Leafs and the Blackhawks tried to beat him with physical play and pure size and strength, attacking him strength on strength, in effect attempting a frontal assault instead of looking for a flanking manoeuvre. And it was remarkably effective.

    In the 2010 playoffs, I remember Mathieu Darche trying to hit Zdeno Chara three or four times behind his net, and the RDS crew noted his great courage and heart, but the results spoke for themselves, he just bounced off, and looked like he got the worst of that collision every time. Pierre Houde quickly advised that hitting Zdeno Chara was a waste of time, he was too big and strong, immune to any consequences, you were wasting your time by doing so, you might as well direct your efforts in another manner instead of beating your head against a concrete wall. And either Mathieu heard this, or the coaching staff heard this, or they came to this same conclusion independently, because after a couple of games nobody really tried to hit him.

    This year though, Randy Carlyle had a really smart insight when he decided that if he was going to give Colton Orr six to eight minutes of icetime, it might as well be focused in the right direction, and he told his boy to not worry about puck handling or passing or backchecking or anything like that, since he can’t do any of these things anyway, and instead cruise around and wait for an opportunity to hit Zdeno Chara. And that’s what he did, just lurk around until the puck ended up in Mr. Chara’s corner, and then he’d attempt to paste him to the boards. Now Mr. Orr got a few clean licks in, missed more than that, and it’s not like he blew Zdeno Chara up or anything, but it got him thinking and worrying, got him frazzled and frustrated, despite Glenn Healy’s wrong-headed and misinformed claims that he is unperturbed by being bodychecked.

    In fact, Zdeno Chara has played his entire career under the previous conditions, where he’s the biggest baddest guy around, and where nobody hits him, so he’s never had to worry about pain or playing with his head up or about having to rush a pass or clear around the boards before he got pasted. He got used to that, and this year when these conditions changed it troubled him and got him off his game to have to worry about Colton Orr, and later against the ‘Hawks about Brian Bickell. This is a new development, and I believe every other team saw it and will use that strategy. George Parros will be told to play it the same way, try to stay in the area where Mr. Chara is, that’s your first concern in the offensive zone, and when he’s near the boards try to hit him. You’ll miss a lot, you’ll not win every hit, but just having him worry about it will throw him off his normal game, where he’s above such considerations.

    Another book in the Zdeno Chara Bible is about his fearsome shot, and what a weapon that is. Now it might be going against the grain, but I don’t think his slapshot is all it’s cracked up to be.

    He has never scored more than 19 goals in a season, and starting from the 2009-10 season has notched 7 (tied for 37th among defencemen), 14 (tied for 6th), 12 (tied for 6th), and 7 (shortened season, tied for 14th) goals. Admittedly, these are excellent, All-Star totals, but they’re not head and shoulders above everyone else’s. Which leads me to believe that while the shot is intimidating, it’s not the advantage that we’re being led to believe. It’s like the Big Bertha or the V-2 rocket, weapons that struck fear in the hearts of the Allies and the civilian populations, but ultimately proved to be limited in their scope and not the game-changers they might have have been thought of as. In effect, Zdeno Chara’s slapshot is unbeatable during the All-Star game, but not in game situations.

    Another indication of its lack of potency is the toothless Bruins powerplay over the last few years. They’ve been searching for answers and can’t get it to click, despite being able to throw out scorers like Tyler Seguin, Brad Marchand, and Nathan Horton, centres Patrice Bergeron and David Krejci, and hulking forwards like Milan Lucic and even Shawn Thornton to stand in front of the net. You’d think that having Zdeno Chara stand back there with that howitzer would generate goals, but it doesn’t, and sometimes they put him in as a forward in desperation, or he goes from the blue line and goes behind the net to battle for the puck. These are not the hallmarks of a defencemen with that great a shot.

    So taken together, I don’t believe that Zdeno Chara is that great a defenceman anymore. He’s clearly the Bruins’ #1, he’s still an All-Star and a guy you have to game-plan for, a guy that’s impossible to ‘match up’ against, but his powers are diminishing, there are thermal exhaust ports riddling that Death Star.

    Further, I think we as Canadiens fans have Bruins issues. We have inferiority complexes when it comes to Zdeno Chara being immune to the wizened, vestigial arm of the law, and as regards Milan Lucic’s crushing victories against our physical defencemen. It causes us to inflate the importance and merit of the Bruins players, and Mr. Chara. Conversely, we rarely get to watch players like Shea Weber and Drew Doughty, being in the Western Conference and getting little exposure on Canadian TV.

    So is Zdeno Chara a Top 5 defenceman. Probably, for another year or two. Is he a Top Twenty NHL’er? M’okay…. But I think saying he’s the best player after Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, Steven Stamkos and Pavel Datsyuk is massively inflating his importance and worth.

  25. Adidess says:

    Hi guys, this is a bit off topic but I tried to post it 10 times the day I wrote it and it didn’t work, so thought I’d give another try tonight.
    It shouldn’t bother me that there are posters claiming to this day that F. Gagnon never argued in favor of trading Subban, but it kinda does. Here’s a link to the article: http://www.lapresse.ca/debats/chroniques/francois-gagnon/201201/23/01-4488663-echanger-subban-pourquoi-pas.php

    The title is: ‘Échanger Subban? Pourquoi pas?’ (Translation: ‘Trading Subban? Why not?’)
    FG started off by throwing in the cliché line “Even Gretzky got traded” and went on to argue that fans who are up in arms about the idea of trading Subban should be more concerned about what their team might seek in return. Quote (my translation): “It doesn’t mean giving Subban away. It’s about willing to trade him if the return is worth it”.

    Here are a few points FG put forward in support of his argument:
    - Price and Subban are the two impact players the team has who would generate the most significant return. Price doesn’t have an heir apparent in the farm, but Habs have Tinordi and Beaulieu in the pipelines, guys, who while maybe not as good, are quite close.
    - A big C is a much bigger need, so a trade for a Getzlaf, E. Stall or Kopitar would be in the Habs’ interest and be fair deals (not really an insult to Subban, I might add)
    - PK is not as good as Karlsson, Myers or Doughty
    - Blues received a very attractive package in return for Erik Johnson, management would be crazy not to listen to a comparable offer.
    - PK already believes he’d Bobby Orr and the nicest thing since sliced bread
    Now, here are some other things he said that people keep using to say he never suggested trading Subban.
    - Trading Subban is not a necessity; the team doesn’t have to do it.
    - Habs should be careful about trading such a talented and popular player, remember past lopsided trades that everyone still regrets
    - Team should not settle for return a la Miinimi-a whatever, i.e. minimal return along the lines of what we received for Ribeiro, Patrick Roy and Theodore.
    - Trading Subban is fraught with risks, so management n’a pas droit à l’erreur.

    I don’t know. Suppose I would write an article today titled ‘Trading Gionta? Why not?’ in which I talked about all the good things that could come from trading Gionta, how he’s aging and has been injured, and I also suggest that Nystrom is someone who could adequately replace him down the road and Markov could immediately step in as Captain and command respect in the locker room. What would be the point of that article?

    I have been reading FG for over 10 years. While a competent journalist, he also runs a La Presse hockey blog called Sans Ligne Rouge (SLR) where he doesn’t refrain from stirring the pot, which has helped generate tons of traffic for La Presse online (formely Cyberpresse). That blog can be as busy as this site is during the season. FG is no flame thrower but he’s been around a long time and knows the business.

    If I were to defend FG, here are some arguments/excuses I would use:
    - Saying this at the time was not quite as controversial as it looks now. Many other columnists and tons of fans including on HIO were saying “let’s see what we could get for PK on the trade market, he doesn’t seem to have many friends in that locker room”. FG would probably not write about trade ideas for PK now.
    - FG knows the business side of hockey too well to truly believe that trading a star in the making like PK would make sense for a market like Montreal that is so starving for bright marketable talents. He was likely stirring the pot, as he tends to do sometimes.
    - He never said PK sucks or anything of that sort. In fact, the players he recommended picking up for PK are guys maybe other teams would not be so keen to give away in return for PK at the time.
    - He wrote the column in response to the frenzy generated by rumours that PK might be part of some trade talks out there and to say ‘calm down’. He was operating from the premise that no player on a non-contender should be considered off-limits; especially if the move gets you something you might never get through the draft. He did take the opportunity to say, your Subban is overrated anyway for sure, but he did not start a ‘let’s trade Subban’ movement.

    Saying FG never wrote that Habs should consider trading Subban is disingenous. It doesn’t look good on the people who keep repeating it, especially if they have read the article. I know it has been suggested that those who think FG argued in favor of trading Subban are probably non-bilingual fans who didn’t have the benefit of reading the article or are not familiar with FG’s work. Do I need to repeat I read FG regularly and that my French is better than my English because it is my first language?

  26. gmur says:

    BOBROVSKY!

    bobrovsky?

  27. Hobie Hansen says:

    The good news for the Habs is that Tomas Kaberle or Yannick Weber will play zero games in a Montreal uniform, aside from Marc Bergevin smoking opium and reacquiring one of them.

    Last year, the two of them dressed for 16 games combined of total garbage ice time.

    So with those two douche bags sent packing, along with the injury to Alex Emelin, that leaves Francois Bouillon, Jarred Tinordi and Dave Drewiske fighting for a spot on the left side.

    It’s going to have to be Tinordi that steps up if the Habs are going to have steady success. Drewiske is a long shot to become an everyday defender and Bouillon might have heart but he’s pretty shaky.

    When healthy the defence should read:

    Gorges-Subban
    Emelin-Markov
    Tinordi-Diaz

    • DDO_Habs_Fan says:

      The term “douche bag” should be reserved for the A-Rods and Marchands not for good guys like Weber.

      “You’re always, always, always looking to make your team better. Always.”- Marc Bergevin

      • Hobie Hansen says:

        Sorry man but a part of me died every time they stepped on the ice, OK!

        • Un Canadien errant says:

          I get it, but I agree with DDO that douche bag is too strong for these two players. I have my issues with Tomas Kaberle, but most of it due to the fact that he’s a former Leaf and Bruin, and the rest because he was horrible and rotten and a symptom of the great failings in our organization. I have to admit that he handled himself with class and restraint while he was here. Same with Yannick, nice kid who couldn’t find a role to fill, his skills weren’t as in demand here as they could have been elsewhere, and he didn’t develop enough. I wish him good luck with the Canucks.

        • Stevie.Ray says:

          Although, clearly neither were right for the Habs, I don’t remember either playing terribly bad in the games they did play last season. Particularly, Kaberle.

        • neumann103 says:

          No, not okay.

          Weber is a decent prospect with excellent puck moving skills and a great shot who could be a reasonable 5/6 option when paired with someone more defensively responsible. He was totally misused by the Habs, who admittedly didn’t have an appropriate opening for him. He was given little opportunity to develop, or even showcase his skills. Being a RH shot is also a little bump. It didn’t take Vancouver long to sign him, when many MOAR BIGGER options were still on the table. Even if he doesn’t fit in Vancouver I expect there are other teams who who pick him up. I was pleased he got the opportunity and that he is not on an Eastern team to bite the HAbs and remind them of that wasted opportunity.

          Kaberle is a victim of the current cap, his age and the contract Carolina was willing to give him at that age. He is a former elite offensive defenseman who was never as bad defensively as derided. I live in Toronto and had a lot of opportunity to see him here. He is a team player who never complained about his situation in MTL and acted professionally. I though signing him was a bad move and would have rather just given Weber that shot (see above).

          “Douchebags?” SK74, Grabovski, Ribeiro douchebags, sure. But these guys? Uncalled for. And wholly inaccurate.

          “Et le but!”

          • Un Canadien errant says:

            The local boys out here have been pumping me for info about Yannick, and I’ve given them the lowdown, not raising their expectations, but giving them a good idea of who he is. The Canucks struggled for long stretches on the powerplay, due in part to the difficult season of Jason Garrison. A rightie powerplay point specialist has a much better chance of getting icetime in Vancouver than on the Canadiens with P.K. and Raphaël Diaz ahead of him on the depth chart.

    • habstrinifan says:

      Wouldnt it be exciting if at mid way in the season it reads:
      Subban Tinordi
      Emelin Markov/Beaulieu
      Gorges Diaz /Bouillion

      If that happens I think it would mean Habs is kicking some butt.

    • FishOutOfWater says:

      yeah man dont call weber a dbag. hes my budddy i remember his ktown ranger days and he was a good kid then an still is. plays for league minimum in van city, hopefully he gets a good showing,

      http://945thesmooth.tumblr.com/

  28. Plekasuares says:

    The matrix is wierd wierd movie. Your welcome.

    ET LE BUT PLEKANATS

  29. Timo says:

    Was out all day… what did I miss?

  30. Sportfan says:

    Apparently Mark Recchi walked into my work this Morning in Point-Claire!

    Sports and Entertainment in the link click and enjoy, clicking is fun!
    http://nickolaisblog.wordpress.com/

  31. Ian Cobb says:

    ALOUETTES played an entertaining game today. If you took your eyes off the tube, for even a second, you missed a fumble, interception, penalties galore, or a great play! The rookie quarterback had an adventure introduction to the CFL. And he nearly had a win!

    But really, what we witnessed were two teams playing very poorly evenly. But it was fun. Als defense were the best part of the game.
    What a way to make a living, a quarter of both rosters have to take up beds in hospitals for the rest of this weekend!

    B, thanks for answering Andree’s inquiry! She does like her sports!

    By the way, hope we see you at the Summit.

    • B says:

      It would be fun to meet some of the HIO gang, but I won’t be able to make the summit. Hopefully they kick some Shark butt. Have a blast!

      –Go Habs Go!–

    • AllHailTheFlower says:

      CFL officiating has gotten out of control this season – on Friday, my Ticats and the Bombers combined for something like 29 penalties. Many were weak / borderline calls.

  32. formerly known as the hc says:

    How on earth can Price be ranked in the top 50? All the so-called experts here (Trolls and many Bi-Polar Habs fans) have him at the end of his career. There is no way that the folks at THN, etc could possibly know more and see more than the “experts”. I am outraged!

    • Mondou6 says:

      Well, let’s see…

      Price is ranked as the 7th best goalie in the NHL.

      If we’re paying him a top 3 goalie salary, I’d say we’re getting ripped off, right? It’s like paying Desharnais more than Crosby. That’s the beef people have with Price. He’s not terrible, but he’s (way) overpaid. And since we have a salary cap, he cripples the roster. Get it?

      • formerly known as the hc says:

        Dollar for dollar, Habs will always need to pay their players more than anywhere else. I’ve been to Montreal a few times, cool city. But hey, the taxes are the highest of any North American Pro-sport market, and by a pretty good chunk of cash too. This, my friend, is the economic reality of operating a team in the Province of Quebec. So, Price is overpaid (by League standards) and every ‘star’ will be too.

    • The Cat says:

      Why should their opinion matter? They dont know any more than any of us here. Take a look at their 2012-2013 predictions…

      [Disclaimer]: I’m a hockey fan. I care about the habs, but probably not as much as you.

  33. Ian Cobb says:

    Hi!
    I am Andree,watching soccer after the great football game. Tell me where is the team D.C. united from?

    • B says:

      Washington D.C. (District of Columbia)

      –Go Habs Go!–

    • Sean Bonjovi says:

      “D.C. United” is how an Englishman would describe “Greater D.C.”, and the “Insulting use of foreign terminology” is how North American soccer people make sure most of us will “Never care about soccer”.

      • Un Canadien errant says:

        Yeah. I pay as little attention as possible to soccer in all its form, but sometimes you’re exposed to it on the radio before you can change the channel, or on TV during a newscast or opinion show when normally you’d skip forward on your PVR, but you’re busy doing your prep for dinner and you don’t bother rinsing then drying your hands before grabbing the remote, you figure a couple of minutes won’t kill you. So you’re spattered with soccer knowledge, like when your dog runs around in the rain and lake and finds a pile of excrement, rolls in it with gusto, and then runs back and shakes vigourously once it’s right next to you. So you’re covered in fecal matter/soccer.

        So yeah, in one of these instances, I heard a pretty good rant from someone, it might have been on “TSN The Reporters”, about how the North American soccer teams were adopting pretentious names based on Euro teams, except for the latter there was a reason for them. Like “DC United” is just an affectation and meaningless, whereas “Manchester United” grew out of the fusion of many clubs into one or something like that, for example. And “Toronto FC” is stupid because in Europe there’s a history of doing stuff like that, their pro team evolved organically from a club team-local association, but in North America you try to adopt a nickname representative of the local geography or culture or fauna or something. Plus, the first part of that name is stupid also.

        • Chris says:

          Toronto FC is short for Toronto Football Club. Ranting about that, Normand, is not one of your better rants given that your favourite team in all of sports is the Montreal Canadiens, short for Club de Hockey Canadien.

          The difference?

          • Un Canadien errant says:

            I love my rant, especially when I describe how I can accidentally be covered in soccer knowledge or another noxious substance.

            The big, big difference is that one happened organically and evolved to today’s Montréal Canadiens. Yes at the turn of the century the founders of the team followed the practice at the time, which is to have a club system and a home club house and such. So ‘le Club Athlétique Canadien’. That turned into ‘le Club de Hockey Canadien’ a decade or so later, and the team became known as ‘les Canadiens’ which at the time had a connotation of simple hard-working folks, fur traders and farmers (Voyageurs and Habitants)…

            If the Toronto Soccer team had been founded in the same way, with a club team and feeder minor teams and a home club and you could be a member and it was dedicated to health and clean living and a major activity was having the whole family out for a picnic on Sundays and they wore green uniforms and acquired the nicknames the Greens and the Shamrocks over the decades, and their official name was still Toronto FC, I’d be fine with it.

            What MLSE did though was pick a pretentious soccer-legitimate ersatz nickname and slapped it onto their brand new pro team, like the owners of DC United and Sporting whatever. That’s even worse than those Irish Pubs that are dismantled and brought over and put back together here, those are more real than the soccer teams names. The only benefit of that name is that it saved the owners from coming up with a nickname more ridiculous and passé than ‘Raptors’. If they had been forced to, they might have chose something trendy but stale-dated like “The Toronto Walking Dead” or the “Toronto Bad Breakers”, or the “Toronto Mayors Who You Think Are Finished But Refuse To Die”.

            The people who buy into that name are the same guys who’ll get all excited during the Euro and World Cup and will try to engage you in conversation/educate you/convert you, by offhandedly discussing the merits of the swishy satiny guys from Portugal vs. the coiffed guys from Spain, and by once in a while accidentally slipping and calling it ‘football’.

            http://relentlessineptitude.blogspot.ca/2012/06/euro-shmeuro-soccer-is-terrible.html

          • Chris says:

            I still don’t understand what you have against Toronto Football Club. That is what they are…you can’t get any more organic than that. There is nothing contrived about it, and it pays homage to the sport. I think that was a perfect name for an MLS club.

            I can understand finding names like Real Salt Lake (THAT one is ridiculous!) or Houston Dynamo pretty stupid.

            I don’t bother trying to convert people to soccer/football any more than I bother trying to conver people to hockey. If people don’t get the sport, I’m fine with that. There are countless sports that people follow that I just don’t really understand the appeal of (led by golf and auto racing), but different strokes for different folks.

            I don’t particularly find the term football pretentious. That is how the sport is known in the rest of the world. We follow the British system of grammar in most every way, but we insist on following the American preference for soccer and aluminum. ;)

            Given the fan base for TFC, which is predominantly expats from countries where a name like Toronto FC is far preferable to a contrived name like Raptors, Blue Jays or Rock, I think MLSE made the right choice in this matter.

            I get very engaged in the Euros and the World Cup simply because they are the best sporting events in the world. There is no other team competition where there are at least 20 countries at any given time that could easily make a run to the semifinals. That kind of competitive tournament is far preferable to ice hockey at the Olympics, which is at best a 6 team tournament.

          • Sean Bonjovi says:

            “I still don’t understand what you have against Toronto Football Club”

            My problem is the word “football”. I’d be OK with “Toronto Soccer Club”.

        • Sean Bonjovi says:

          I’ve written similar rants a few times on this site. The name “Bell Pitch” (that’s the Field at BC place when they paint Soccer lines on it) drives me into a rage.

  34. habs4life77 says:

    Look at all the haters voting for he should be ranked lower, hahaha all those hopeless leafs fans gta stop using this app

  35. Adidess says:

    What a crazy CFL game! I know that’s an oxymoron, but come on!

  36. habstrinifan says:

    How can I come to a site and see one of the most respected of its posters actually try and explain the unfortunate phrasing by one of its newest afficionados to hockey. Sometimes you simply have to say “no disrespect intended but you are wrong”.

    To formulate the question, “How would Patrick Roy fare in today’s hockey?” is simply misguided and for any experienced and knowledgeable hockey pundit to rationalize it by asking how Roy would have done behind a weak defence is astoundingly disappointing.

    Implicity questioning their transcendent greatness by asking “how would Jack Nicklause have fared in today’s game?” or “how would Pele have fared in today’s game?” is misguided.

    I say with utmost kindness and respect to the original questioner… sorry but your fundamental doubt is wrong… the question is invalid.

    To the ‘learned’ arguments which go “but what if Roy didnt play behind top defences”… I call BS.

    • Da Hema says:

      You are right that anyone who would question whether Roy was the greatest, or at least one of the top five goalies of all time, is a fool. That said, to ponder how well Roy would play today or 50 years ago is almost pointless. Every era has its challenges. In the 1950s and early 1960s, there were only a handful of NHL positions open, so players had to be both talented and tough. But in the end comparing players and teams from different eras is very difficult. Perhaps someone here will confirm whether I have the story right, but I believe Gordie Howe was once asked how many goals Rocket Richard would score today (the question was posed by a reporter in like the late 1970s). Howe replied that Rocket would score about 10 in today’s hockey. The reporter was incredulous: are you saying the Rocket would only score ten goals today? Howe said, yes — Maurice is like 65 years old now.

    • sweetmad says:

      I asked the question because I have never seen Roy play,I have no idea,what the D was like in front of him,or anything else.
      All I have to go on is what ever one else says,never had a chance to make up my own mind,so that is why I posed the question and because some one else said that,Price doesn’t stand a chance because everyone compares him to Roy.

      I wasn’t downgrading his abilty,I wouldn’t dare,I enjoy my good health and peace of mind.

      The only thing I was talking about, was how Carey is jumped upon here,and how it isn’t right that he sould be compared to a saint.

      As for the reply I recieved,if I can’t handle that at my age,doesn’t say much for me and if required,I could reply in a much more euridite fashion,so no problem.

      The point is I still think CP is great and he is going to show everybody this season,and if I’m wrong, won’t be the first time and I hope I’m around long enough that it won’t be my last.

      I am sorry that so many took offence at my question,never wanted to upset anyone,just wanted to know the answear,as I had never seen him play,so I think that is fair enough.

      There are a lot of great players in the past, who wouldn’t be great in todays game,and that has come from some of the players themselves.
      GO HABS GO

      • bwoar says:

        Don’t sweat it. Trini’s reaction was so obtuse I feel sad for him. Frankly you caught a lot of flak from people who should follow their own implicit advice about thinking before they post.

        “thoroughbred”

      • New says:

        Hockey is a team game where the media especially have determined that some goaltenders are magic. Fans invest belief in a goalie and when the guy is traded away he is always better than whoever replaced him. You asked an honest question but you asked it of fans who can not answer objectively, else they would just shrug.

        Roy is held as the gold standard because he was in town for the last Cup a generation ago, and frankly the year after winning that Cup he had a horrid season. The year he was traded one of the players he was traded for, the goalie Thibault, had a better GAA and Sv% than Roy did with the team, and so did the backup. People forget that because Roy went to a stacked team. The Canadiens Captain Mike Keane was traded with Roy and won his third Cup there. No one talks about Saint Mike or that Roy and Keane went to a team that allowed fewer goals while scoring 25% more than the Canadiens that year.

        For a generation of Habs fans who never saw the team with all star players all we have is memories colored by the mists of time. Hopefully that is about to change. Hang in there.

    • bwoar says:

      Is this post a joke?

      “thoroughbred”

    • Chris says:

      Do you honestly believe that Patrick Roy has four Stanley Cups if he played his career for the Minnesota North Stars of the 1980′s and 1990′s?

      How does his career look without four Stanley Cups? Is he still a legend? We’ll never know, which was the point of the original post.

      “Implicity questioning their transcendent greatness by asking ‘how would Jack Nicklaus have fared in today’s game?’ or ‘how would Pele have fare in today’s game?’ is misguided.

      Congratulations…you have, in that one sentence, just decreed that about 75% of all sports discussions are misguided! Given this parameter, we can never again have the conversation comparing players between eras. Because the eras WERE different.

      Wayne Gretzky does not score 215 points in today’s NHL. So how many DOES he score? How can we compare Crosby to Gretzky if we can’t ask the question of what a reasonable performance would be for that guy in the same era?

      How do we truly judge Price against the likes of Roy, Dryden or Plante when he has been forced to play for bubble teams fighting for their life, while his peers were playing for some of the most stacked teams in their eras?

      It is comparing apples and oranges. Roy was a transcendent player who had all the things you need to be a legend of the game: talent, hard work (not to mention his innovations and willingness to exploit loop holes regarding equipment), opportunity and pure stupid luck. I will never dispute that. But Patrick Roy negotiated his own way out of Montreal partly because he was not interested in playing behind a disintegrating talent base…this is a guy who had to be restrained from attacking an NHL official because he disagreed with a black mark on his statistics from that game. This is a part of “The Trade” that frequently gets overlooked. Roy, who was obsessed with his statistics and his legacy, wanted out and the Habs were trying to cater to that. In the end, they didn’t get the deal done soon enough.

      But if we can’t try to contextualize the performance of past greats, than people need to stupidly stop using those guys as reference points. And I think that was precisely sweetmads’ point in her post, something that flew completely over your head judging from this post.

      • habstrinifan says:

        I did NOT mention Carey Price in any of my posts on this matter.

        I did not make or refer to any comparison between Price and Roy.

        I did not give any opinion as to Price’s stature.

        I studiously avoided mentioning any other hockey player in my responses.

        I said and stand by this opinion … that to ask the question in the context in which it was originally asked with its implicit questioning of Roy’s stature is misguided.

        The question was not framed in any academic way such as a question in your ’75% discussion’ would have been. So why pretend?

        I have no interest in the incessant arguments over Price’s stature. I do NOT think the question, “how would Roy have fared in today’s era?”, used in the context of ‘supporting’ Price is valid. And in this instance, your ‘defence in front of him’ argument is threadbare, to put it kindly.

        Sincere Edit: Again I explain to the original questioner that there is no personal criticism meant.

        My point is:

        Roy’s greatness is more infallibly based on evidence than the infallibility of the Pope.

        • Chris says:

          I still don’t think you’re getting her original post in your rush to make sweetmad “misguided”.

          She expressed frustration that Price constantly has to deal with comparisons to previous legends in Montreal? Is this misguided?

          She mentioned that we cannot possibly know how those same legends would do in the same situation that Price has found himself. Is this misguided?

          I would argue no on both counts. I freely stated that it is my impression that Roy was a great goaltender in his era, and I believe he would be a good to great goalie playing behind the current edition of the Habs. The teams in front of a goalie matter: Dominik Hasek was the best goalie in hockey and rarely got anywhere in the playoffs. Henrik Lundqvist is the best goalie in hockey and he has been very good in the playoffs but doesn’t have any silverware to show for his sustained run of excellence.

          You mention that you studiously avoided mentioning names. Good. You do realize that you replied to somebody else’s post, somebody who was frustrated with the sentiment that Price isn’t living up to the legacy of the great goalies of years past?

          Price, like Koivu before him, carries the bag for something that is largely out of his control. I wish he would have played better in the two seasons where I felt like he legitimately had a team that could go deep (2007-08, 2008-09), but he was young and immature at that point of his career. He was not good last season, but the Habs played terrible as a team down the stretch and in the playoffs so I can’t lay that egg entirely on him.

          I will happily stand by the notion that it is fair to contextualize the careers of different players. There is nothing misguided about it, nor should anybody get their knickers in a knot one way or the other. It is purely for conversational purposes, as we can never know the answers one way or the other. Which was precisely what the original post said that you claim was so misguided.

  37. Habs4LifeInTO says:

    Als 14 – 14 against the Riders right now and AC is out of the game.

    24 cups and counting….

  38. Habs4LifeInTO says:

    “This Guy” I agree with you that the wording of the HIO poll must be throwing some people off. This is a Habs fan website afterall and the “ranked higher” choice (that’s the way I see it) should be much closer to a clear majority. There are kids on here clearly who aren’t that good with language etc based on responses to your comment that I can see and from the poll results too….or pk CONTINUES TO NOT GET ANY LOVE. EITHER WAY i AM A LITTLE DISAPPOINTED. LEAFS FANS MAYBE?

    24 cups and counting….

  39. punkster says:

    The Hockey News…the publication that predicted Habs finishing 13th in the East for 2012.

    Oh… and ranking PK below Karlsson, Doughty and Chara is just silly…maybe they didn’t get the memo re: Norris winner?

    ***SUBBANGIN’ NOW BABY!!!***

    • Hobie Hansen says:

      I think Subban, Karlsson and Chara are all very close overall. I just haven’t seen enough of Doughty except for a game here or there in the playoffs and almost 4 years ago in the last Olympics, where he was very good. Karlsson’s offensive ability slightly eclipses that of Subban and Chara is just a beast on defence.

      • punkster says:

        OK…but…Chara is an attempted murderer, Karlsson plays in a place called The Canadian Tire Centre and Doughty is 3 times zones removed from reality…plus PK gets my vote because I’m a homer.

        ***SUBBANGIN’ NOW BABY!!!***

        • Hobie Hansen says:

          Lol.

          That doesn’t mean I’d swap Subban for any of them though!

          Chara is too old.

          I think I’d take Subban over Karlsson because down the road I think Subban will prove to be noticeably better defensively, he hits like a freight train and his slap shot is incredible. That puts him past Karlsson’s and his uncanny offensive ability.

          I think Subban and Doughty are similar players but the success Doughty has had in LA the last little while puts him a head of Subban. Not knowing Doughty inside out, I’d hang on to Subban.

  40. Da Hema says:

    I must confess I normally don’t place much, if any, stock in these polls, but the current results are bizarre to say the least. Subban was awarded the Norris trophy by a vote of the Professional Hockey Writers’ Association. While some of their choices in the past have been somewhat dubious — the selection of Randy Carlyle in 1980-81 for the trophy comes to mind, and I also felt Larry Robinson should have received it for the 1985-86 season rather than Paul Coffey — Subban’s selection for last season was appropriate. The trophy should go to the defenceman who demonstrated the greatest all-around ability in the position for that season. Subban does not have any weaknesses in his game other than a need to polish aspects of it. He is fun to watch, dynamic, and passionate. How posters here could possibly believe he should be ranked lower is a mystery to me. I wish some of these folks would provide reasons for their views.

  41. JUST ME says:

    Another poll for wich i will post no answer . Ranked higher,ranked lower, who cares? It is so personnal to judge and figure that this guy is the best or i hate this guy because of this and that… I just know P.K. is great. I am happy he won the Norris trophy cause from here he really deserved it but then again it was a 48 games season and the team was strugling …

    I am surprised about Carey`s ranking though probably because i come too often on HIO and am getting used to the negative comments on him. In that case i would rather take the advice of an outsider on it cause we see too much of our players and tend to be too severe on their game. I know Carey is well thought of from outside Montreal and am just happy he plays here .

  42. This Guy says:

    Regarding the poll. Maybe I’m the only one that feels this way, but “ranked higher” and “ranked lower” feel like they can be interpreted interchangeably.

    • Da Hema says:

      Can’t see how anyone could confuse the two, Guy. THN ranked him 23rd — and two of the three poll choices involve agreeing either that THN ranked PK too highly or too lowly. Seems clear to me.

  43. kerrgte says:

    Eklund – Ages ago, someone actually took the time to analyse Eklund’s rumours. As I recall, his reported accuracy was in the vicinity of 0%.

    A bit less accurate than a tea leaf readiing.

    Wait for September, then maybe something could happen as the cap may require some teams to make some changes. Notice the many conditionals in the last sentence? Then again, maybe not.

    cheers on an August day
    George K

  44. HardHabits says:

    A hearty hello to my fellow HIO denizens. Hope all is well with the lot of youse. I haven’t been posting much as of late as I have been soaking up the summer in all it’s splendid glory. Been livin’ the entrenched Montreal lifestyle. Looking forward to seeing you crazies at this year’s summit Hurley’s shindig.

  45. sweetmad says:

    I missed some of the replies to my last post,so I’m putting my reply here.

    I am proberly one of the oldest posters on here,I never saw Roy play because I lived in England at the time,the only ice hockey I saw was on the bloopers on British TV when there was a bench clearing brawl.

    I didn’t get into hockey untill the game when we come back and beat the Rags,we came back from being 4 or 5 down in the third.
    my husband worked in the evenings, being a HABS fan coming from Montreal,he wanted to know the score and used to phone me about 8 times during the game to find the score.Thats how I got into hockey, now I know more about the team and the league than my husband Mike does.

    One more thing about learning lessons from the past,I never did nor society as a whole,if so why are there still wars.

    The thing is I still think Carey is great and he will show us this coming season,he knows he has something to prove,and he has enough character to do it and he wants to go to Soshi.

    I don’t give much credence to all the lists that all these people publish,they cannot see every player every game,and as long as PK keeps it up he has nothing left to prove ,he didn’t get the Norris for nothing,
    GO HABS GO

  46. habs11s says:

    Anyone have the link to the rankings?

    _____________________________________________________________

    “How would you like a job where when you made a mistake, a big red light goes on and 18,000 people boo?” -Jacques Plante

  47. Bill says:

    I hate even discussing something Eklund made up, but I don’t see a trade match between the clubs.

    The Canucks have four million and change in cap space and need another forward and Dman just to fill out the roster. Habs are in better shape with three million+ in cap space and a full roster.

    The Canucks need help on defence in my opinion: they have a nice top four but not much depth after that. The Habs need is also at D.

    The Canucks actually also really need secondary scoring, of which the Habs have plenty, but again, they don’t have the Dman we need.

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      Exactly. The Canucks have a few interesting players who are untouchables, the guys they need to compete, then they have a bunch of marginal players, and no real prospects except their three first-rounders from the previous two seasons. And, what they have we don’t need. They let Mason Raymond die on the vine, thinking they have enough smaller speedy skilled players on their Top 9. They won’t swap out any of their defencemen for our available forwards.

  48. commandant says:

    Call me biased if you want, but Subban is better than Karlsson.

    I like Karlsson, but Subban is very close to him offensively.

    Defensively, its not close, Subban is miles ahead.

    Go Habs Go!
    Your 2013 NHL Draft Headquarters, Now Open.
    http://lastwordonsports.com/

  49. Vinny Red says:

    ““The 2013 Norris Trophy winner won on the strength of his offensive and physical tools,” THN writes about Subban. “Now he has to show he can play the truly hard minutes like the penalty kill and log big ice time.””

    I hate this so much. PK was playing the big minutes for about the last 3/4 of the season. His ATOI is only skewed because they spoon fed him ice time when he first came back. I think there were nights he didn’t hit 20 mins, but by the end of the season he was logging 25+ (probably closer to 27-28 mins but i’m too lazy to look it up/figure it out)

    • Da Hema says:

      …and THN’s “experts” who wrote he needs to play “hard minutes killing penalties” overlooked that he has been one of the team’s primary penalty killers for three years now.

      • commandant says:

        Actually he didn’t play big penalty kill minutes last year, and our PK unit suffered big time as a result. This was one of the biggest issues i had with Therrien last year.

        Go Habs Go!
        Your 2013 NHL Draft Headquarters, Now Open.
        http://lastwordonsports.com/

        • Da Hema says:

          Upon reflection, you are right. One of the things that infuriated me about Therrien was the amounts of ice time he was giving Markov and Subban respectively. When everyone could see Markov was out of gas, Therrien still was giving him shift after shift while his young champion stallion evidently needed more bench time to improve his “attitude.”

    • commandant says:

      Agreed

      To add to that, PK didn’t play many penalty kill minutes last season, and that became a major weakness for the team.

      In 2011-12 penalty killing was the only strength the team had, finishing 2nd in the NHL and PK played major minutes.

      So assuming the guy who was the most used defenceman in 2011-12 on the number 2 PK in the league needs to show he can play truly hard minutes like the penalty kill, is just silly.

      This is why once again, I’ll be skipping the THN publication and picking up McKeen’s and the Sportsforecaster instead.

      Go Habs Go!
      Your 2013 NHL Draft Headquarters, Now Open.
      http://lastwordonsports.com/

      • B says:

        Gorges, the bum, was the most used Dman on the Hab’s 11/12 penalty kill (2nd most in the league). Subban was the third most used Dman on the Hab’s 11/12 penalty kill.

        Subban was, however, tops in overall (and PP) TOI on the Hab’s that season. Perhaps that what you meant?

        –Go Habs Go!–

        • commandant says:

          Yes Gorges played the most minutes

          PK was on the top PK unit with Gorges…. he finished only a few seconds behind Gill in total PK ice time on the season (212 minutes 26 seconds…. vs 211:42) .

          Part of the difference is the number of minor penalties PK took that year (something he still needs to cut down on).

          Go Habs Go!
          Your 2013 NHL Draft Headquarters, Now Open.
          http://lastwordonsports.com/

  50. Da Hema says:

    Who are the 13 muttonheads who voted PK should be ranked lower?

    Edit: 14 muttonheads….
    Edit: 15 muttonheads….

  51. Da Hema says:

    Number 23? The challenge for us Habs fans I suppose is to properly distinguish between where Subban is now as opposed to his potential, or what he will become. In my opinion — and I agree with Bill — there is no defenceman in the NHL I would trade straight up for PK, but as Chris and others note, he will become even better as he polishes every aspect of his game. So this is where we are: PK wins the Norris Trophy, and everyone — including PK himself — anticipates him becoming a better defenceman. If this is the debate we will have — i.e., how much will PK improve? — we are truly blessed as Habs fans. In the end, though, these rankings do not really mean much — after all, where is Pacioretty?

    • DDO_Habs_Fan says:

      Lundqvist was ranked right after at 24. If he’s not a top 20 player than who is? One thing for sure, Subban and Lundqvist are better than Sutter, Carter and Hall.

      “You’re always, always, always looking to make your team better. Always.”- Marc Bergevin

      • Chris says:

        Agreed, but I think they mean Suter there. And Suter and Subban are awfully close in terms of their calibre of play.

        • Landof10000lakesHab says:

          Most often agree with you on most things Chris. I do believe Suter is currently the most well rounded Dman in the NHL – pretty much “Lidtrom” lite at this point in his career. TOI NHL leader, calm-cool-collected in the d-zone, pin point passes, PP and PK wizard, and effective hitter. All the tools of an elite Dman. Subban is not yet as well rounded, but perhaps will be in next 2-3 seasons.

          • Chris says:

            I don’t dispute any of that. But on this website, you have to blow smoke up the rear ends of Subban and Price or people can lose their minds.

            I actually think Subban is pretty close to Suter in terms of all the skills you mention. The only thing he gives up is his decision making, and that is coming along rapidly.

            Suter gets the edge because he has been doing it for longer. Subban will have to prove that he can keep producing now that other coaching staffs are going to be gearing their game plan around him.

  52. B says:

    Dustin Walsh is still listed on the Hab’s prospects page:

    http://canadiens.nhl.com/club/roster.htm?type=prospect

    –Go Habs Go!–

  53. Habsfan888 says:

    According to Eklund Habs and Canucks are talking again and a deal could happen this week. Well we all heard that before.

  54. JayK-47 says:

    How is the reigning Norris trophy winner the 6th ranked defenseman? That stinks.

  55. Chris says:

    My top 10, for your amusement:

    1. Crosby
    2. Malkin
    3. Stamkos
    4. Datsyuk
    5. Chara
    6. Lundqvist
    7. Zetterberg
    8. Weber
    9. Karlsson
    10. Toews

    Let the flaming begin. The obvious omission is Ovechkin, who I love. But his complete lack of defensive game knocks him out, as does the craptastic nature of his previous two seasons. If he puts up another big year and proves he’s back, he jumps back into the top 5.

    Karlsson would suffer the same fate, but his offensive game has been so much better than his peers that it makes up for his defensive shortcomings (which I also think are overstated…the guy is masterful at breaking up passing lanes because of his speed).

    • Eddie says:

      disagree on Karlsson. he is dominated by the physical game, and that makes him less than great in the defensive zone.

      I take Subban over Karlsson. Subban at 220 lbs is now up there with the Webers and Charas, in that he can get it all done, including fighting off physical forecheckers and front of the net battles.

      I love Karllson’s offence, but there are 3 who are better overall.

      That’s why Bourque and Robinson were always better than Paul Coffey.

      • Chris says:

        I didn’t find Karlsson to be dominated by the physical game until he came back from the Achilles injury and had noticeably slowed and was rusty. He is perhaps the best passer in the game, his skating is outstanding and he has exceptional vision.

        Subban is knocking, but I think Karlsson is still better. Subban took a quantum leap last season, but he’s got to sustain it and he’s got to continue to improve his penchant for getting tunnel vision (he still doesn’t use his teammates well enough), his passing (he’s got to learn how to feather a pass when it is appropriate…he frustrated the heck out of me at times with his rocket passes into Markov’s feet on the PP) and his ice management (no more foolish 1 vs. 4 rushes that waste energy and have zero chance of a positive result…just make the safe play!).

        Karlsson gets a slight edge because he has a more positive impact on his teammates’ level of play than Subban has had thus far. But I also think this will be the single greatest improvement in Subban’s game this season…I fully expect a more mature Subban who demonstrates a better feel for the game this season.

        I would rank the defencmen:

        Chara, Weber, Karlsson, Subban/Suter, Doughty, Keith (I think he’s significantly overrated by a lot of people), Kronwall, Timonen, Beauchemin. Ekman-Larsson is rising fast, and Pietrangelo would get in there too if he cleans up his defensive game.

        • Eddie says:

          It could have been the injury. But i think the league started to play more aggressively against Karllson and this exposed his lack of physical power to respond. He can’t be more than 185 lbs – maximum – and I think I’m being generous there.

          Once he has control of the puck, Karlsson is phenomenal. But if his team is fighting to get control in the defensive zone, this exposes a deficiency in his game – not overall vs every d-man – but rather deficient compared to Weber, Chara, and in my opinion, Subban as well.

          Hey Chris, you were asking which team could give us a d-man for a center?

          Speaking of d-men, I wanted you to comment on my Plekanec for Byfuglien trade I suggested the other day – if you could. I think the jets could use Plekanec at center and they have Trouba who could easily break in and play top 4 minutes I think – he is going to be an excellent d-man for them.

          • Chris says:

            I think it would be an interesting trade. Byfuglien is an elite talent, but he’s one giant red flag with his conditioning issues.

            He is everything the Habs could use, although I do think his defensive game is a bit raw and can be exposed when he tries to do too much. He reminds me a bit of Phaneuf in that regard.

            The problem with Byfuglien is that I just don’t see him as a Bergevin type player. But maybe Bergevin has a good feeling for him from their Chicago days. His off-ice issues the past couple of years raise concerns.

            Plekanec would be a good fit on the Jets. Put he and Andrew Ladd on a line and you’ve got a top two-way line that can match up against most lines in the league.

        • on2ndthought says:

          Letang and Bieska have to be in the discussion. I would put them between Keith and Kronwall on your list. I haven’t seen a lot of Pietrangelo, but he’s also on the list by almost all accounts.

          “a cannonading drive”

          • Chris says:

            Letang is knocking on the door. Bieksa is significantly lower. I’d take Kronwall long before Bieksa.

            Pietrangelo was routinely exposed as a defender last season, and his offence (24 points in 47 games) didn’t cut it. Bouwmeester is ahead of him for now…Bouwmeester is seen as a defensive defenceman, yet he netted 22 points in 47 games last season.

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      2010 Chara and earlier maybe, but not this season’s version.

      • Chris says:

        Chara was outstanding for most of the playoffs, and I still think he is the most intimidating and game-changing defenceman in the game. Teams work Chara into their game-plan more than any other player.

        Like Subban, they desperately try to take away his shot. Nobody wants to go into his corner for fear of getting pasted. People generally tone down their antics after the whistle when he is on the ice as he has got the Larry Robinson finger-wag and glare down pat, based on his history of violence.

        He logs huge minutes: 27:21 in the regular season and 29:31 in the playoffs. He kills penalties, matches up against the other team’s top lines, and plays on the power play.

        He’s getting too much mileage on his odometer and is probably due to give up his crown to Weber. But nobody combines defence, offence, toughness and leadership like Chara.

  56. HabinBurlington says:

    Have a great day everyone, pure unadulterated beautiful sunshine here in Southern Ontario. Off to a bbq then down to the Big Smoke to see Blue Rodeo, (Thanks Molsons, in the front row!)

    CHeers everyone!

  57. Sportfan says:

    The Question is can PK prove everyone wrong and play better than last year? I think so!

    Sports and Entertainment in the link click and enjoy, clicking is fun!
    http://nickolaisblog.wordpress.com/

  58. frontenac1 says:

    @habfan10912 I’m an Expert??!! Thanks Amigo!

  59. habstrinifan says:

    We are getting back into serious hockey mode. So let the debates begin. For instance I followed Commandant’s link to the Rangers to prospects. Nice quick read.

    But majority agrees that Kreider is their #1 prospect?

    And then there’s Krsito. Would he have been raked as our #3 prospects.

    I am not claiming greater knowledge here.. but I am surprised at how high these two are ranked bythe writer.

    Aside: I only know posters by their HIO handle so forgive me Commandant if this is your own work which I seem to be doubting.

    • HabFab says:

      Commandant writes the article but if my understanding is correct the rankings are from a group of bloggers on that site including Commandant.
      Situation is similar to EOTP’s Top 25 under 25, about 10 have votes but only one writes up the article.

  60. Mitch.sc says:

    The J-sonic add makes me avoid this site.

  61. Chuck says:

    Yeah, I was being sarcastic. Everyone knows that he’s a horse.

    Free the sarcasm font and the emotions!

  62. Timo says:

    Re Giroux… how do you injure a finger golfing?

  63. DDO_Habs_Fan says:

    RE: Subban needing to log big minutes

    I don’t know but maybe it isn’t a good idea for a D-man to log 30 minutes a night; especially for a 82 game season. Playoffs are another story…

    “You’re always, always, always looking to make your team better. Always.”- Marc Bergevin

  64. Habfan10912 says:

    My take on the poll question – There is no way there are 22 players better than PK. No way.

  65. HabFab says:

    Our UFA’s, where did they go?

    Alex Avtsin – Novokuznetsk, KHL
    Colby Armstrong – Vaxjo, SHL
    Jason DeSantis – HIFK, SM-liiga
    Blake Geoffrion – Retired
    Jeff Halpern – unsigned
    Tomas Kaberle – unsigned
    Kyle Klubertanz – Zagreb, KHL
    Petteri Nokelainen – Brynas, SHL
    Michael Ryder – NJ-2 yrs, $7M
    Ian Schultz – unsigned
    F. St-Denis – CBJ-1 yr, $575k
    Joe Stejskal – unsigned
    Yannick Weber – VAN-1 yr, $650k

    • Habfan10912 says:

      Shocked no one picked up Kabrele. Sarcastic post.

      • Un Canadien errant says:

        The funny thing is that I heard him interviewed on TSN I think, and he was kind of bitter, saying how he’s in the best shape of his life right now and can’t wait to go to a team that can use him.

        1) Best shape of your life? What have you been doing for the last couple of seasons, you pudgy fool? Now you bust out that move?

        2) How’s that “finding a team that can use me” thing going? You’re kind of languishing on the shelf there buddy. Maybe the Canadiens weren’t treating you unfairly, maybe you need to look in the mirror.

        • habtastic74 says:

          I honestly don’t really blame him too much for that kind of attitude. If I were in his shoes last season, I would have been very frustrated. Yes, he was a terrible value. Yes, it was probably best for the team to wrap him in bubble wrap and make sure we could buy him out. That being said, he put up good numbers offensively while he was here. I would also say that he is better defensively than Weber or Drewiskie, yet those two are both employed.

          So long as Kaberle is asking for 900k or below, I don’t see why nobody is picking him up to play as a 6 or 7 d-man who can effectively help out offensively.

          Our refusal to play him last season may very well be having an effect on how other teams are viewing him this off-season.

    • Sportfan says:

      I still wouldn’t mind Halpern

      Sports and Entertainment in the link click and enjoy, clicking is fun!
      http://nickolaisblog.wordpress.com/

    • jphk says:

      And to think that MB was not able to package this lot to get either Crosby or Malkin…

  66. sweetmad says:

    Price sucks ,I have never heard such a load of bs,Carey doesn’t suck,I have just spent 30 mins watching Price saves on the Canadiens site.Carey just makes it look too easy thats why it looks like he doesn’t make spectacule saves.

    I never saw Roy play didn’t even know he existed,but I do know that comparing Price to anyone in the past doesn’t make sense to me,different time different game,how would Roy fare against todays players,I don’t know nor does anybody else.

    We watch the HABS,I don’t put much faith in analysts,but they watch a lot more goalies than I do,when 99% say he is so good ,I am not going to argue with that,they can’t all be wrong,it’s just the old fuddy duddy’s comparing Price to a long gone hero.

    We are here it is today,so lets forget what happened yesterday.

    I know Price didn’t have a good end of season last season,but he was one of the tops in wins most of the season,it was the last month everything went down.

    Carey is going to be great next season and have all the doubters eating their words,but of course they will never admit they are wrong.
    GO HABS GO

    • habstrinifan says:

      You said somethings which absolutely rankle me.
      “how would Roy fare against todays players?” Are you kidding me?

      Such a statement makes the rest of your arguments unacceptably imbalanced.

      • sweetmad says:

        Well I have no idea how would he fare against todays players,I never saw him play,and quite honestly I don’t care.

        I have no time for living in the past,much more interested in today,there may be a future we don’t know

        All I care about is next season and the team we have now,I want to see Carey and PK win gold in Soshi and as many of our other players get the silver and bronze.

        Carey will step it up,because that is the kind of person he is, past glories never won anything today.
        GO HABS GO

        • scavanau says:

          Open your eyes and realize where you’ve shoved your head

          • HabFab says:

            A heads up that you are speaking to a lady…

          • sweetmad says:

            I don’t know,where there came from ,but you never improve anything,by dreaming about what is in the past, you never learn lessons from the past.

            You have to look forward and make the best of what you have,then you can shape a better future and a better team.

            I never understand negativity I would much rather be proved wrong if they fail than proved right,where is the fun in that.

            There is nothing wrong with our team, I like the fast pace hockey that they play,little guys and all,they just have to remember to play their own game,I am really looking forward to a great nail biting season,aqnd I will enjoy every minute of it even the losses.
            GO HABS GO

          • twilighthours says:

            An obviously young one at that, if she’s never seen Roy play. So perhaps a bit more couth is in order.

          • HabFab says:

            She would probably love the young one but a late to hockey fan if I remember correctly ;)

        • ZepFan2 says:

          “you never learn lessons from the past.”

          That is so wrong. We learn from the past not to repeat the mistakes we’ve made.

          “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

          ———————————————————————-
          Ka is a wheel.

          “On we sweep, with threshing oar.
          Our only goal will be the Stanley Cup!” – Danno

          For Your Life

      • Chris says:

        Include the whole sentence please.

        “How would Roy fare against today’s players? I don’t know nor does anybody else.”

        There is nothing wrong with that statement. Roy did not play in this era. My suspicion is that he would have done just fine, as I did see him play his whole career and he was the best in the business for much of that time (I still think Hasek was better, but it is certainly debatable). But let’s also put some other context here.

        Here’s the league placement for Patrick Roy’s teams over his career:

        1985-86: 7th of 21
        1986-87: 5th of 21
        1987-88: 2nd of 21
        1988-89: 2nd of 21
        1989-90: 4th of 21
        1990-91: 6th of 21
        1991-92: 5th of 22
        1992-93: 6th of 24
        1993-94: 9th of 26
        1994-95: 17th of 26
        1995-96 (MTL): 9th of 26
        1995-96 (COL): 2nd of 26
        1996-97: 1st of 26
        1997-98: 7th of 26
        1998-99: 4th of 27
        1999-2000: 9th of 28
        2000-01: 1st of 30
        2001-02: 4th of 30
        2002-03: 6th of 30

        Of Patrick Roy’s 18 full seasons, he entered the playoffs on a team that finished in the top 7 of the league’s standings 15 times. He played very well in a couple of the seasons where his team wasn’t outstanding, but few goaltenders in the past 30 years enjoyed the quality of supporting cast throughout their career as Patrick Roy.

        Roy was a big part of those finishes, no doubt. But the Habs of the mid 1980′s to 1993 were a very good hockey team with a lot of offensive talent, while the Avalanche of the mid 1990′s to early 2000′s were one of the most talent stacked teams in recent memory.

        Carey Price is not as good as Patrick Roy. Full stop. This is basically unequivocal. But it is absolutely fair to question how Roy’s career would have unfolded had he been forced to play for the Habs through the late 1990′s when they featured a terrible defence corps and in the early 2000′s when they featured an anemic offence. His career would not look nearly so rosy, that much I am sure of.

        • HabFab says:

          Chris, off subject but was it you raising the question the other day as to why the LAK’s had so many NHL D. If so, it has to do with Willie Mitchel and his injured leg. Not sure when he will be back as he missed last season and still rehabilitating.

          • Chris says:

            Ah, thanks for that. Didn’t realise they were expecting him to still miss time.

            I know that Greene missed most of last season too, but he was healthy by the end of the playoffs. Greene would be a fantastic addition to the Habs blue line, but I don’t see any chance of the Kings parting with him if he’s heatlhy. (We wouldn’t want him if he’s not).

            Still…Doughty, Voynov, Regehr, Muzzin, Greene, Martinez, Ellerby and Schultz. They are 8 defencemen deep and Mitchell will make them 9 deep if he comes back.

          • HabFab says:

            And as for the contract thing last night, my son is in the same situation.

          • Chris says:

            It sucks, but I think contract work is the way of the future. I’ve somewhat given up hoping that it will end and have started to look at how I can enjoy my life despite the uncertainty.

            I think we’re going to pay a huge societal price down the road when the stress that people feel for the lack of commitment by employers comes home to roost. It impacts people’s ability to settle down, plan families and prepare for retirement.

            There are a whole host of things that have contributed to the mess, and there are no easy fixes (if there is a fix at all).

        • habstrinifan says:

          I am surprised at your response. I value the research and seriousness you seem to put into hockey. So it shocks me that you dont see the implicit message in even formulating the main question, “how would Roy fare today?” How could any serious evaluation of goaltending ability question Roy’s ability to be exceptional in any era.

          Edit: The poster’s story about her introduction to hockey makes me more sympathetic to her misguided questioning but it is no less alarming to see it.

          • Chris says:

            As a butterfly goaltender, Patrick Roy would have been brutal in George Hainesworth’s day when goalies weren’t allowed to go to their knees.

            How do you compare the relative greatness of the two players?

            In a league where you size and speed are paramount, how would some of the small guys from bygone eras do in today’s NHL? Not necessarily well.

            The argument is that if they grew up in this era, they would be bigger too. This is a bit of a fallacious argument. When I was a kid, tall guys were not sprinters and they certainly didn’t play hockey.

            Now, Usain Bolt and Zdeno Chara have shown that being a monster can actually make you an elite athlete so these guys are all getting a look that they would never have received before. In hockey, the shorter guys that used to get precedence in scouting because they could stickhandle and skate fast are getting pushed to the sidelines in favour of guys who can pound the puck through boards orthe player through the boards, take your pick.

  67. Chuck says:

    Subban had to prove that he can log big ice time? Huh?

  68. Habfan10912 says:

    I stopped being a subscriber to the Hockey News shortly after the Chara -Patches incident. There writers have less hockey knowledge than your average blogger.
    I now prefer to get my hockey fix from the experts on HIO.

  69. HabFab says:

    And 3 out of the Top 50 Prospects, too bad Trevor Timmins wasn’t better at drafting players;
    http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospect-rankings/

  70. Bill says:

    They can rank Subban where they want, but I wouldn’t trade him straight-up for any of the defencemen ranked above him in THN, or any other defenceman in the league. And I probably wouldn’t trade him for any of the forwards either, with the obvious exceptions of Crosby or Malkin.

    Full Breezer 4 Life

    • habstrinifan says:

      I havent read the original article yet but it is interesting that some of Subban’s rearguard competitors for Sochi (as cited by many posts in HIO) are not ranked as high. Does that mean that Subban is more a locked for Team Canada than we think.

      Also I worry about the criticism re PK minutes and ice time etc because this depends on MT. If MT coaches like last year (especially re Markov’s icetime) then Subban wont be able to escape that criticism.

      • Bill says:

        It should be a criticism of MT. The Habs had one of the worst penalty kills in the NHL last year. I’m no coach, but if I were, I might have tried to rectify that by, y’know, playing my best defenceman – one of the best in the league – on that penalty kill. Failing to do that while watching your penalty kill suck all season is a total head-scratcher.

        And I think Subban is an absolute lock for Team Canada. His speed and mobility and all around game are perfect for the big ice.

        Full Breezer 4 Life

        • Timo says:

          YOU JUST DIDN”T!!!!???? Michael Therrien went out of his way to design a Personal Development Program for PK to make him a better man. How dare you question the coach?! I have never been more livid. For shame, Bill… for shame.

    • tophab says:

      right on bill.

    • twilighthours says:

      Crosby, Stamkos, or perhaps Malkin. That’s the shortlist for me. PK is a gem.

      • Chris says:

        If Datsyuk or Zetterberg were 10 years younger, I’d put them on the list. Their defensive prowess is so exceptional to go with their elite offensive talent that I think they are game-changing forwards.

        But your list works for me given the ages of all involved.

  71. The Jackal says:

    I don’t put much stock on these lists either way, but it’s not secret that everyone in the hockey world thinks Price is excellent.

    That being said, this list has Karlsson way to high. Top 10? Psshhhh… that guy is so over-rated, he can make Letang look good defensively. Sheesh!

    ______________________
    Hockey sine stercore tauri.

  72. The Jackal says:

    It is impossible that Price gets ranked that high, doesn’t everyone think he sucks?

    :P

    :D

    ______________________
    Hockey sine stercore tauri.

    • Bill says:

      Half of HIO knows he sucks, ha. But I’m sure their opinions are much better informed than those of coaches, GMs, and professional sports writers who seem to think highly of him.

      The Habs’ problems are not in goal, pointe finale. The dislike of Price is based mainly on him not being as good Patrick Roy. Well, there was only one Patrick Roy. For my money the best goalie ever. Not a fair comparison.

      Full Breezer 4 Life

      • tophab says:

        dryden was best ever.

        • HabFab says:

          Dryden sucked against the Russians and that team was so dominate in NHL play except for his first playoff run, that I have to agree with Bill.

          • No.4isNo.1 says:

            no disrespect intended but I have watched Dryden, Roy & Price throughout their careers. I believe that more than either of the others Dryden came up big when he had to, it is hard to argue with 6 Stanley cups in 8 years.

            Better times are ahead

  73. HabinBurlington says:

    Yess!

    Am surprised Kane ranks ahead of Datsyuk.


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