Subban, Habs submit salary figures; Lacroix new assistant coach

With a salary arbitration hearing scheduled for Friday, the Canadiens and restricted free-agent defenceman P.K. Subban submitted salary figures on Wednesday and they are more than $3 million apart.

Subban is asking for $8.5 million for one season, while the Canadiens are offering $5.25. Subban, who won the Norris Trophy as the NHL’s top defenceman two seasons ago, earned $3.75 million last season when he posted 10-43-53 totals in 82 regular-season games and had 5-9-14 totals in 17 playoff games.

Canadiens GM Marc Bergevin made a couple of other moves on Wednesday morning, announcing that Dan Lacroix has been hired as an assistant coach to replace Gerard Gallant, who is now head coach of the Florida Panthers, and Rob Ramage has been hired as a player-development coach, replacing Patrice Brisebois, who left the job for what he said were family reasons.

“We are very pleased to welcome Dan Lacroix as part of our coaching staff,” Canadiens head coach Michel Therrien said in a statement. “Daniel earned the respect of his peers for his coaching skills and his impressive knowledge of the game. He has worked as a coach for almost 15 years, including seven seasons as assistant coach in the NHL. He knows the Canadiens organization and his experience at the professional level made him a much coveted candidate. He is an excellent addition to our coaching staff and to the Canadiens organization.”

Lacroix, a 45-year-old Montreal native, has worked as an assistant coach in the NHL for seven of the past eight seasons, and was with the New York Rangers last  season. He also worked as assistant coach with the Tampa Bay Lightning from 2010 to 2013 and with the New York Islanders from 2006 to 2009. Lacroix also worked as assistant coach with the AHL’s Hamilton Bulldogs during the 2009-10 season.

Lacroix played 188 regular season games in the NHL as a left-winger between 1993 and 2000 with the Rangers, Boston Bruins, Philadelphia Flyers, Edmonton Oilers and New York Islanders. He registered career totals of 11 goals, seven assists and 379 penalty minutes.

Ramage played 1,044 regular-season games in the NHL as a defenceman between 1979 and 1994 and was part of the Canadiens’ 1993 Stanley Cup team. He also played with the Colorado Rockies, the Blues, the Calgary Flames, the Toronto Maple Leafs, the Minnesota North Stars, the Tampa Bay Lightning and the Philadelphia Flyers. Ramage and Bergevin were teammates with the Lightning.

“We welcome Rob Ramage as part of our hockey personnel,” Bergevin said in a statement. “Rob is a dedicated and competent hockey person who will contribute to our player development group. Our entire organization, and particularly our young defencemen will benefit from his experience and his knowledge.”

Ramage, 55, spent the last two seasons working as an amateur scout for the St. Louis Blues.

The Canadiens also announced Wednesday that Rick Dudley now holds the title of senior vice-president of hockey operations and that Scott Mellanby has been promoted to assistant general manager, working along with Larry Carrière under Bergevin. Trevor Timmins added the title of vice-president of player personnel and will also remain the club’s director of amateur scouting.

There are currently only six NHL defencemen with a cap hit above $7 million and Subban could become the seventh. Nashville’s Shea Weber tops the list at $7.857 million, followed by Minnesota’s Ryan Suter ($7.538 million), Pittsburgh’s Kris Letang ($7.25 million), Florida’s Brian Campbell ($7.12 million) and Toronto’s Dion Phaneuf and Los Angeles’s Drew Doughty ($7 million each).

Goaltender Carey Price is the highest-paid player on the Canadiens at this point, slated to earn $6.75 million next season during the third year of a six-year, $39-million contract with an annual cap hit of $6.5 million.

Subban’s agent, Don Meehan, was on Sportsnet’s Fan 590 radio on Wednesday and was asked if it was important to him and Subban that he become the highest-paid defenceman in the NHL based on average annual value.

“Really, we haven’t approached it in that respect,” Meehan said. “That’s not something that he’s instructed us to attend to. When you get down to an arbitration process, it really becomes in many respects a statistical analysis, and it can be different from a negotiation you’re having with a club. They’re really two different venues.

“But he’s a remarkable player, and he has a remarkable presence in Montreal. I think Montreal acknowledges that, and I think we’re all trying to do our best to see if we can come up with something that makes sense from both sides’ points of view.”

(Photo by Allen McInnis/The Gazette)

Habs, Subban $3 million apart on salary figures, by The Gazette’s Pat Hickey

Lacroix back in Habs fold,

Ramage joins Habs,

20 Questions with P.K. Subban, National Post


  1. mdp2011 says:


    Brenda Branswell ‏@bbranswell 40s
    Speculation and intrigue when P.K. Subban left newser for phone call, but said he talking to mom not agent because he left grill on. #Habs

  2. mdp2011 says:

    In other news. One of the worst trades ever made by Savard, but somehow it seems to be the least talked about.

    Stu Hackel ‏@stuhackel 18s
    Eric Lindros, John LeClair and Eric Desjardins to be inducted into the Flyers Hall of Fame

    • bwoar says:

      No, never talked about. Ever again! ! !

    • on2ndthought says:

      it hurts

      “a cannonading drive”

    • Chris says:

      I hope that was sarcasm.

      As much as Rejean Houle gets grilled around here, Serge Savard made some pretty bad trades.

      The one above is obviously bad. But Mathieu Schneider, Kirk Muller and Craig Darby for Pierre Turgeon and Vladimir Malakhov did not work out very well either. While both Turgeon and Malakhov were excellent players, neither was cut out for the leadership roles they were thrust into.

      Trading Guy Carbonneau for Jim Montgomery was a howler.

      Trading out Carbonneau, Muller, Desjardins, and Schneider ripped a lot of character from the Habs’ dressing room. And I don’t think that the trade Savard was working on when he was fired, involving Patrick Roy for Stephane Fiset and Owen Nolan, would have been that much better in the long-term for Montreal than the one that gets Houle so much criticism. And Vernon for Roy was also circulating at the time, and that would not have helped Montreal much either, although Vernon was obviously superior to both Fiset or Thibault.

  3. Luke says:

    I wish someone would insult me with a despicable and disrespectful offer of 5 million dollars.

    I think half of the problem is the language people (media and posters) are using.

  4. jrshabs1 says:

    as per our favorite insider….

    This just in…

    *Hearing a deal could be very close and that PK is mulling it over right now. Hearing 7 years, close to 8 per…but not quite. More to come for sure.

    Go Habs Go!!!!!

  5. sirs81 says:

    lol breaking news lol PK talking to his Agent for 25 min rofl 😀

  6. myron.selby says:

    I might as well throw my 2 cents worth in on PK’s last contract. I personally thought it was the exact right decision for the Habs. They structured it so that most of it was paid in the second year. That meant that PK lost considerably less due to the lockout than he would have if it had been split equally over the 2 years.

    The benefits and intentions of the deal (to my mind) were:

    – it allowed both the team and PK a chance to see how he would develop his game
    – they were in a cap crunch. By signing PK to the bridge deal it gave them room to manoeuvre that they wouldn’t have had if he’d signed long term for bigger dollars.
    – it allowed the team to buy up more of PK’s UFA years (and to me this is the key). If they’d signed PK to the max 8 year term, it would have made him a UFA at 30, right in his prime. Now if they sign him for the 8, it secures him until 32.

    I have tremendous respect for Bergevin and how he is handling personnel decisions and signings. I have no doubt that he knows exactly how important PK is to the team he is trying to build. That is why I believe that 7 years is the minimum deal that will be announced before the arbitration hearing starts, and I think 8 years is more likely.

    I don’t think there is any ill will on either side. I think this is just the process, and it goes to the last minute because both sides are trying to get it right while looking after their own concerns (which is only proper.)

    I have no idea what the deal will look like. My guess is that it will increase in dollar amounts as it progresses. If I had to pick a number I’d say aav will be between 8 and 8.5, but it could easily go higher depending on how the last 3 or 4 years are priced.

  7. on2ndthought says:

    I’m not liking all the “PK brand too big for Montreal” talk.

    Yes, PK is out there hustling coverage. He is also out there hustling in the gym, and in his charity work. This is a very determined young man. He has stated that he wants to be in Montreal long term. That was not an evasion to a question, it was an answer. Why would you not take him at his word?

    To ascribe a Machiavellian plot to PK and Meehan reeks of bad faith (not negotiating in bad faith, UCE; don’t shoot).

    I will take PK at his word, no matter the outcome of these negotiations over the next 2 years (if it goes that long), until he demonstrates that his word is untrustworthy. To do otherwise is, dare I say, despicable.

    BTW, Meehan in his interview mentioned something like ‘cap is going up 6 or 7 % per year”. Hopefully that is the difference in these negotiations, 6-7% per annum, say $0.5M. That should be bridgeable.

    “a cannonading drive”

    • habstrinifan says:

      “He is also out there hustling in the gym, and in his charity work.’

      You missed the post sometime in the past 3 days or so which described P.K working out in the GYM as just selfish showboating”.

      “Protest Rogers blackout of Habs game…sign at:

    • bwoar says:

      I like it when the PK brand gets bigger. I think it’s great for the game. I hope PK gets bigger than #99, #66 and young master #87 combined. That’d probably entail a Stanley Cup or two. Everyone wins.

      PK’s a young man who is already a great ambassador for the game. His high profile is nothing but a net win for the sport, and he should keep it up no matter what happens.

      • Luke says:

        I mentioned the PK-Brand earlier today (Actually a few weeks back as well) and I would like to state, I’m all for him doing it.

        The league needs a little freakin’ personality. As much as I hate Marchand, at least he isn’t the Rice Cake of Boredom that Toews the boy turned robot is.

        So build a brand, PK. Success in the league is what will drive the relevance, so it shouldn’t hurt his play.

        Now, I’d prefer he do it in Montreal. I don’t see much added value in Toronto over Montreal, but I could certainly see it in the USA.

    • franco says:

      What charity work?

      If he has a sponsor (Hyunda, for example) they give him money to represent them, and cover all expenses.

  8. Forum Dog says:

    I feel pretty confident they will get a deal done before tomorrow’s hearing. Regardless of his long-term future with the Habs, PK is an asset that needs to get locked up.

    Bergevin will likely stick to the formula of buying out RFA years at a reasonable price, paying something slightly less than market value for the first couple of UFA years, then pay top dollar for any additional UFA years. I feel like he may also aim for something less than an 8 year term. Maybe 6 or 7. I’m thinking an average hit of around 7.6 (get it?), so $46M (for 6 years) or $53.5M (for 7):

    1) $5.75
    2) $6.25
    3) $7.5
    4) $7.5
    5) $9.5
    6) $9.5


    1) $5.75
    2) $6.25
    3) $7.5
    4) $7.5
    5) $8.5
    6) $9
    7) $9

    In either scenario, PK enters the free market at age 31 or 32. At which time he’ll have full control and still have about 5 or 6 good earning years left at whatever the market can bear.

  9. CHicoHab says:

    Yes they are as delusional as the 8.5 mill offered by PK.

  10. HabsFanInTampa says:

    Unless I read incorrectly or it’s a typo, that is truly a low-ball offer ($5.25M per season) from the Canadiens, are they delusional?

    • bwoar says:

      You have failed to understand the arbitration process. The offer amounts, and the reason they are what they are, have been explained in at least 4 different articles in the past 48 hours and probably by 6 different posters on this very site.

      Calm down, read up, and relax. No reason to panic or point fingers right now.

    • on2ndthought says:

      wow, from a Hawks fan, I thought it was a Habs fan at first, but pretty fair.

      “a cannonading drive”

    • DeadEnd says:

      Was interesting until I noticed he described Brodeur as a “butterfly” goaltender. Apparently, he’s never actually seen Marty play.

      And Niemi is on the current list but not Crawford. Interesting.

  11. CHicoHab says:

    Could be a despicable phone call PK got?

  12. habstrinifan says:

    Another dent in the P.K. aura.
    Arbitrator: Any thing else you wish to add MB?
    MB: Heck P.K isn’t even the MOST HATED guy by Marchand.
    Arbitrator:….that’s it then … P.K you need to prove yourself to Marchand.

    “Protest Rogers blackout of Habs game…sign at:

  13. shiram says:

    5 questions, Subban edition!

    1. Did Subban have a dip in his performance this past season?
    2. Should Subban play on the penalty kill?
    3. Are the Canadiens management disrespecting Subban?
    4. The bridge contract in hindsight, good or not?
    5. That beard Subban had last season, yay or nay?

    • habstrinifan says:

      I am scared to answer!

      “Protest Rogers blackout of Habs game…sign at:

    • Cal says:

      1. Yes, but during the playoffs he regained his form.
      3. Nope.
      4. Good. Managed the Cap, allowing MB to make moves while he waited for Gionta’s hit to leave.
      5. Nay.

    • mdp2011 says:

      1-Yes. Horrible stretch between Jan and April. Great playoffs though.
      2-sure why not.

    • HabinBurlington says:

      1. Overall I think yes, but still a very productive year.
      2. Perhaps with Gorges absence he indeed will play more. Markov also should see less minutes on the PK this season.
      3. No, but it sure is fun to think so……..
      4. Good
      5. No matter to me.

    • Forum Dog says:

      1 – No, his play did not dip. He did not have a Norris trophy type of season, but he was for the most part excellent and took his game to a new level in the playoffs. Second in team scoring during the regular season, and its #1 offensive producer in the playoffs. A great season where he showed continued growth.

      2 – He doesn’t need to play on the top penalty killing unit. Let other guys get some ice, especially the gritty shot blockers. He could get some time here and there, or solidify a second unit, but he should get some rest and focus on even-strength and PP.

      3 – No. They are managing their assets in the best possible way they can.

      4 – The bridge contract was a way to keep costs down, knowing that they were going to have to pay at least some of that money back later.

      5 – That beard was full of soul. We’ll see it again I’m sure.

    • on2ndthought says:

      1. PK was adding complexity to his game, learning in front of 20,00 fans is tough, but I would say PK at the end of last year was better than PK at the end of the previous year so: no.
      2. No, not if it increases his minutes past 22 or 25 for the regular season.
      3.They love PK (doesn’t everyone?)
      4. It ain’t hind yet, ask me tomorrow or this time next year.
      5. I WISH I could give PK tips on his appearance (or MB for that matter)

      “a cannonading drive”

    • shiram says:

      Here’s my take,

      1. He might have dipped, but he was still for the most part a great player.
      2. He certainly could and already did, and I think he can play more minutes per game, but that time might be better spent at ES and PP.
      3. I don’t think so
      4. I think it was good, but there’s still some ways to go to ascertain it.
      5. I liked it

  14. habstrinifan says:

    Stay Tuned folks! TSN690 reporting that P.K got an URGENT call from his agent!

    “Protest Rogers blackout of Habs game…sign at:

  15. shiram says:

    Today is a day where no news is certainly not good news.
    We need a big announcement today!

  16. sirs81 says:

    guys on tsn radio said that he just got an urgent phone call from his agent 😀

  17. Lafrich says:

    First three years 5.75 million. This is to appease the idea that Markov is his equal. Years 4 through 8, nine million per year. Total cap hit 7.81 million

  18. John Q Public says:

    Throughout everything Youppi has remained silent.
    8 1/2 months till the playoffs begin.
    The rest is fluff.

  19. franco says:

    Why go to the edge (brinkmanship)?

    If you do not go to the edge, how will you know you squeezed every bit of juice out of the orange.

    Each side know how far they can go, at some point it becomes take if or leave it. My money is on ‘take it’, where do I sign.

    The media have a job. What is that job? Report facts, and if none exist word it in such a way that specualtion become your ‘facts’.

    Mckenzie and some others (not many) will stay silent without facts.

    This is very telling. If they speculate, they will make that clear.

    Bergevin will let out information, on a need to know basis.

    Meehan, will answer a question by saying nothing, a true pro.

    Subban will stay in the limelight showing everyone that he is P.K. Subban for a reason. Showmanship, popping up everywhere, you tube, weather reports, interviews on an on. What a great brand, he puts ‘corn flakes’ to shame.

    There are no bad guys here, just business. Everyone will win eventually. The fans will get to pay for the party, as it should be, everyone else will take the rest of summer to add up there wins.

    It is not a matter of winning, it is a matter of, how much do I win?

    P.S. Rogers is worth (his own fortune) 7.6 billion dollars.

    He knows how to make money, a little petition is like a flea attacking an elephant. This was figured out a long time ago, spend a few million, get the rights, then make a billion back.

    Always works, for him, why change now.

  20. John Q Public says:

    Perhaps the sticky points are not about the amount of money or term.
    Maybe he’s asking for guaranteed playing time on the PK during the regular season, a side of Buffalo to be delivered weekly or to be paid in Gold.

  21. PrimeTime says:

    I am amazed that mature fans can believe PK transcends the team and even the NHL. He is only bigger than life to his screaming, crazed fans, and apparently the Toronto media gasping for NHL headlines.

  22. habstrinifan says:

    I am listening to TSN60 and there is some smart and un-hysterical reasoning.

    One of the comments which opened up my mind was,
    “If it was an 8yr deal for 8m” it would have been done already.
    I am inclined to agree to that.

    They are also saying that Subban came in at 10m and MB at 8m.

    If that is the case and Subban cannot come down to 8m(which is a stupendous amount of money) then I, as a fan, ACCEPT that he will not/shouldn’t be signed for any higher. 10M is OUT OF THE QUESTION!

    We sign him to what we can and let things move along. I am NOT going to make P.K out a bad/selfish whatever person. Nor am I making MB the wisest fairest of them all, or Molson the most philanthropic of them all.

    We sign him… and move on.. but with HONOUR and RESPECT for the effort and thrills that he has given us… which he has in SPADES!

    What… why are you looking at me like that? What?

    “Protest Rogers blackout of Habs game…sign at:

    • Kooch7800 says:

      it will be interesting to see what happens. I do think they get a deal done before arbitration. If it does go to arbitration though it will really signify that these two (organization and player) are really not on the same page.

      PK currently is not worth 10 million in my eyes. He has too many holes in his game still and right now we are still missing pieces to a cup contender that will cost money. I don’t envy the current position of the GM in a salary cap world in a hockey insane market.

      I have a gut feeling though a deal will be done by the end of today. PK wants to win and he knows with Price and the youth of the habs he would have a decent shot here and if it goes to arbitration the habs could trade him to a non contender and would control his destiny which I don’t think he would want

      • habstrinifan says:

        If it goes to arbitration, both P.K and MB should be asked to read the latest interview of Ken Dryden on the Bob McCowan radio show… on which P.K was the main topic. Dryden put it all into a realistic perspective for both club and player.

        I really wish it could influence their mindset. Why? Selfish fan reasoning. I want to watch the MTL. Canadiens of 2014-2015 with P.K without acrimony and turmoil.

        “Protest Rogers blackout of Habs game…sign at:

    • habs-fan-84 says:

      That’s fair, however, if a 4 year deal was done (for example), PK would be a UFA at the end of that contract and could very conceivably command 10M on the open market in 2018. Naturally, PK wants to be compensated for those UFA years.

      I agree though, 10M today is way too much. It’s very possible the only “hang up” is the “structuring” of the deal. Time will tell.

      • Kooch7800 says:

        these deals are not easy and especially now with a new CBA. That is why I am laughing at the analysts who think this should be quick any easy to negotiate. PK will get his money and will get term but it will come down to the wire today I think.

        He is about to become the highest paid player in Franchise history….
        that is something big.

        I still think that Carey Price is the habs mvp

    • franco says:


      It is true, the talking heads can say anything and have no proof to go with it.

      Just mindless jiberish

    • New says:

      There are a ton of factors but the quote about if it was 8 for 8 it would be done makes sense on some level. I think you have to look at PK along two lines, on ice and marketability. PK is a very good D, although he’d probably play the wing better. But market wise perhaps only Crosby has a better grip. Now put Stamkos in TO and I am sure market would fall into his lap. Put PK in TO and he would take the market in a month and look for more. Put PK in an arena with 8000 and you’ll soon see 18,000 and comps hard to come by. Then TV, appearances, the rebranding of the franchise to be PK Subban and the Wandering Icewolves or whoever.

      So given that it is not done yet, wasn’t done before the shortened season, wasn’t done last season, and that Meehan doesn’t like to leave money on the table, I guess it might get done if the Canadiens can get their deal, or if the Canadiens have a deal scoped out with another team. The team has left enough money to cover any reasonable arbitration award they disagree with so as not to immediately UFA Subban but even that to me is a sign he is gone in the planning. Likewise PK isn’t going to take less than he could get somewhere else. The difference being that those Canadiens seats are full with or without PK.

      PK outgrew his market and he knows it.

  23. Chris says:

    Ronn: Regardless of the ownership group’s respective wealth based on their outside endeavours, the Montreal Canadiens franchise is the third best revenue generator in the NHL, behind only the Toronto Maple Leafs and the New York Rangers.

    It is possible for that to be endangered, but only if the Canadian dollar flat-lines down into the low 70 cent or high 60 cent range again, something that not too many economists see as likely.

    The salary cap is set based on league revenues. If the cap is going up, it is because the league’s revenues have also gone up, and the owners get 50% of that. We aren’t in the days where the owners with deep pockets of their own can come in and drive up salaries: the salary cap took care of that.

    So I remain confident in the assertion that the Montreal Canadiens franchise is swimming in cash by NHL standards. If Molson is looking to use the team to make huge profits, then sure…spending to the cap every year might start to hurt. But there is no end in sight to fans’ willingness to pay higher ticket prices, so the increased costs thus far have been payed by fans and the television deals, not Molson.

    • CJ says:

      Hi Chris. I do agree with your comment, ” swimming in cash by NHL standards.”

      It does however irk me that the Canadiens (Molson) has to pay a subsidy (revenue sharing) to a guy like Charles Wang, who’s net worth far exceeds Molson’s. As noted last night, I am not an economist and feel that I am in over my head talking about the business side of sports, but it always struck me as odd that some owners try to run their franchise in the black, as the expense of the on ice product. This business is about results. If you (the owner) can not cover the costs, then maybe you shouldn’t own a team. A perfect example is Eugene Melnyk and the Senators. How can this team continually lose money? How can they not sell out a home game? My answer is simple – the owner has not priced his product accordingly. Further, by failing to invest in the team, the fans are unwilling to pay to watch an inferior product.

      One last point; In the case of Montreal, so far as I am concerned, Geoff Molson is the curator of a iconic brand. He has a responsibility to the fans of this storied franchise to ice the best product and continue to afford the Canadiens the best chance of winning. If this causes him to lose money, so be it. Of course, Molson is not losing money, and further, he appears to have typied the qualities consistent with ownership connected to the fans.

      I’m ranting and raving now, so I will stop……

      • franco says:

        Revenue sharing is the fairest way to go.

        Why? Because you need other teams to make up the league. Wang is in a market that has many distractions, other sports teams etc.

        The pay per view will garner many more hits for Islander games, thus grow the league, Merchandise and credibility are at stake.

        When a piece of merchandise is sold, no matter which team’s logo, the league splits the revenue. So if you buy a Montreal jersey, you are giving 29 other teams part of that purchase.

        At the end of the year Molson gets his money back, plus. He gets to see his franchise increase in value. Regardless if you miss the playoffs or make the playoffs you get your equal cut.

        Canadiens need the Islanders, Leafs etc. to get better so when they come to Montreal there is a buzz.

        Everybody wins, the lock out showed the owners the fans will come back, regardless of there rantings. How much can Montreal charge for a ticket before the demand stops…..nobody knows? Eventually another $100.00 a ticket, perhaps, no more free T.V……no big deal just add it to the cable bill.

    • Maritime Ronn says:

      All fine…

      …But $29M EBITDA is not huge, and the debt to equity Ratio is high compared to the Rangers (0%) or MLSE.
      Now if players begin to request big up front bonus contracts, things could change quickly….and that may be one of the sticking points of this contract negotiation.

      As mentioned, Mr. Molson (partial owner) is not in the NHL Owner Billionaire club as several others are.

      • HabinBurlington says:

        Ronn, I remember reading that the City Taxes which the Habs pay on the arena was more or the equivalent to all the city taxes combined of the U.S. teams in the league. (I admit it was years ago and can’t remember finite details).

        I don’t doubt Montreal’s revenues are 3rd highest in the NHL, but they probably have the highest Accts. Payable in the league. By this I mean taxation, cost of doing business (everything must be done in two languages), etc….

        Molson paid a premium price for the franchise, it was financed, he didn’t just cut a cheque from a savings account.

        Wealthy franchise indeed, but not wealthy enough that stupid mistakes can be repeated. This franchise already paid out Gomez and Kaberle in recent years, those payments dramatically hurt the bottome line.

        • Cal says:

          Molson’s group was paying $11.1mil yearly in property taxes. They negotiated it down to to roughly $8.5mil.
          See the story here:

        • franco says:

          Habsinburlington….one word baloney.

          Caps saved owners from themselves and the wrath of the fans.

          “Don’t look at me” they say, I have to live with a cap.

          Montreal and Toronto are the envy of the league, almost a license to print money. Montreal could probably sell the franchise tomorrow for close to a billion dollars.

          Financed at cheap interest rates, let the bank cover the money and use your money for other things.

          So called stupid mistakes are repeated throughout the league, it is part of doing business. You take your chances, no guarantees.

          You sound like you want to take up a collection for them, believe me, you will only dream of there wealth. Private schools, gated properties, friends in high places, limo’s, private jets, boats, riches beyond anything you can imagine. More coming all the time…beer sales…on and on and on.

      • frontenac1 says:

        Hola Ronn! It gets a bit complicated when looking analyzing ownership financials as there are many moving parts. For example, Evenko”s revenue is added in to CH revenue and offsets CH debt. Similarly MLSE is a huge moving part of subsidiaries and Real estate. Forbes does a pretty good job of valuation but even they admit their limitations. The most valuable franchises are Toronto,New York,Montreal,Vancouver. In that order.

  24. ClutchNGrab says:

    “There are a few guys who really irritate me … Tomas Plekanec from Montreal, I hate him,” Marchand said with a smile. “Oh, I can’t stand him. No, I probably shouldn’t say that. I dislike him very much.

    Now, that’s rich.

  25. HabinBurlington says:

    Starting to wonder if Martin Brodeur may be forced into retirement. His desire to still be a near everyday goalie doesn’t seem to be shared by teams needing help in net, and there are almost no teams left in the NHL looking for a starting goalie.

    • CJ says:


      I might also add, based on recent signings, including Lehner (Senators) this morning, you can see why Budaj is nearly impossible to trade, unless we are willing to take back salary somewhere else. I can’t imagine any team in the league giving up a draft pick for Budaj. I have a feeling he may end up on waivers, provided Tokarski has a strong camp.

      • 123456 says:

        I’m not convinced Tokar is ready to be the backup to Price. I certainly did see him play a few good games, but I have seen Buddah play many good games. It may be best for Toker to remain in the AHL and get 50-60 starts.

        • CJ says:

          So far as I am concerned, it’s all about what have you done recently. Budaj was well below average on the west coast trip when he took over from Price following the Olympics. In the limited playoff action he saw, he did nothing to steal my confidence going forward, which was only an extension of a poor performance last year against the Senators. I think if we were measuring performance based on being a good guy, Budaj would receive an A+. Based on performance in the net, he’s a C at best.

          I don’t know what more Tokarski could have done in the playoffs. For a kid, stepping into the spotlight, I thought he acquitted himself very well. In game six, he allowed a single goal. I am not sure what more he could have done to win the confidence of the fans. Add in the fact that he is much younger and has a much more affordable cap hit, than the answer becomes even clearer…..

      • Phil C says:

        Until Price proves that his knee if fine, I hope Budaj stays put. I am a little freaked out that he has not skated on it yet.

        • CJ says:

          There is no doubt that if Price is out for an extended period of time, we are in trouble. It is never easy to replace one of the very best goalies in the world today. Any solution is going to be a step down. That said, if Budaj is our go to guy, than we are at risk of not making the playoffs.

          • Phil C says:

            If Price needs surgery or something, I would agree with what you said above about Toker being ahead of Budaj and I envision him getting most of the starts and Budaj back in his familiar role as back up. With the defensive system the Habs play, I think they can insulate bad goaltending from most teams enough to get into the playoffs.

          • on2ndthought says:

            Toker is not a bad goaltender.

            “a cannonading drive”

    • GrosBill says:

      I think if he still wants to play (and apparently he does), he will find work this year. I doubt it will be as a starter unless he is filling in for an injured starter.

      Worst case scenario for him IMO is he has to wait beyond the start of the season for a spot to open up for him.

      I mean hey, even Bryz didn’t stay out of the NHL too long last year!

    • Luke says:

      Too many decent cheap goalies are available.

      That’s part of the reason why I think Tokarski would not be claimed if placed on waivers.

      You can’t swing a dead cat without hitting a capable back-up.

  26. HabinBurlington says:

    A little more levity from Friedman on the topic du jour.

    To me the headline doesn’t match what he writes in the article, but that is nothing new.

  27. dannyb0y says:

    Subban is a once in a generation type of player. Stop low balling him and pay him what he deserves. We have lost too many superstars over the last 25 years, we don’t need to lose another.

  28. Luke says:

    Good Morning.

    This post was a reply. How odd that it wound up here.


    …Look a bird!

  29. PrimeTime says:

    My sense is the negotiations are vey close and it’s a matter of structure. MB wants the deal structured for the betterment of the organization, a structure that Meehan may not be accustomed but will try to max dollars over the term. Any of the media pundits in Toronto who claim MTL shouldn’t be playing hardball are just making noise when NHL stories are at a premium, and they should be ignored… point allowing the noise get in your heads. The PK Cheerleaders here should also realize that MB needs to have a broader view of how this deal will affect his ability to build a contending team around his his “young veterans”. The two sides will come to a deal but MB is not of the philosophy to max 2 or 3 players to win – he wants a “team”. Structure is key… is not the issue!!

    • habstrinifan says:

      “MB wants the deal structured for the betterment of the organization, a structure that Meehan may not be accustomed …”

      Geez! Another positive remark buttressed by ridiculous surmise. Amazing that you have the sense to see what but Meehan cant.

      “Protest Rogers blackout of Habs game…sign at:

      • PrimeTime says:

        Do you not understand that I am suggesting that MB is trying to structure the deal differently than what Meehan is “used to”. Accustomed
        adjective – customary; usual; habitual: in their accustomed manner

        It’s called forward thinking. Read the whole comment before jumping to conclusions – something you may not be “used to”.

  30. rice says:

    Just to get it on the record 52 over 7 years. Might be overpaid for his RFA years but will be a bargain for his UFA years

  31. Maritime Ronn says:

    Poster Luke brings up a very interesting, and not out of realm of possibility scenario below….
    ” …..Perhaps Meehan and PK are orchestrating a much bigger plan here, and the Habs aren’t that big part of it.
    The next 2 years as the top paid Hab, some PK-brand building with the game’s oldest, most honoured, franchise and then as a 28 year old, UFA is off to Hollywood or NYC for the richest contract in league history and maximum exposure.

    He’s got the charisma and savvy to pull it off. He has the media presence and exposure to suggest he’s building towards something more than being an NHL defenseman.
    Perhaps the question becomes:
    While no player is, or was ever bigger than les Canadiens de Montreal, is PK just too big for the City of Montreal?

    Photo ops with Magic John$son in Monaco and Johnny Football Manziel along with so many others.
    A presenter in Toronto of Much Music awards and a TSN Vegas interviewer at the NHL awards.
    The cover of McLeans magazine and a PK summer work out video that goes viral…
    All the other Habs combined do not come close to this exposure…

    • Ian Cobb says:

      That has gone through my mind as well Ronn.!

      Summit game tickets, News, Pictures and comments

    • JF says:

      An obvious flaw in this argument is that if the case goes to arbitration, the deal reached would be for one year, not two, with P.K. again being an RFA at the end of it.

    • PrimeTime says:

      Could it be possible that PK is in it for himself and not playing to satisfy his most diehard Hab fans??? (Sarc). Could PK be the villian and not MB?? Say it’s not so!!!! I support the crest, not the name on the jersey.

    • habstrinifan says:


      “Protest Rogers blackout of Habs game…sign at:

    • New says:

      @MaritimeRon There you go. You have to look at the track record. PK plays pretty darn good hockey but he isn’t complete. PK plays a second game and he is perhaps the best we have ever seen at it. He broadcasts. He works with the press, appears on panels, does spots and ads. PK loves the camera and it loves PK. He is a natural.

      The press comes out on PK’s side just like the fans do. He belongs in a huge media market, TO is the only choice in Canada, but any of the major US markets would do. His agent’s job is to get him there by hook or by crook.

      PK is a distraction. Frankly Montreal lives for that. If not PK it is Halak, or Huet, or Theodore, or the kids chaperoned while the coach dates whoever. 21 seasons of distractions and counting. But as a media swirl PK can be a whirlwind, put butts in empty seats, and pull cameras out of college football and into now full arenas.

      He is gone, sooner or later. The PK brand needs to move to a bigger pond.

  32. adamkennelly says:

    I really appreciate the efforts of all the posters putting up comp numbers with existing contracts of top tier D-men but its almost not relevant because the landscape CBA and Cap wise has changed since many of those deals were signed.

    PK will get his money – no matter how large his cap hit is – he will play up to it. He is worth what the market says he is worth…if he was a UFA – he would get $9M – so Habs should land around $8 because of the RFA years involved in this contract.

    • Ian Cobb says:

      Canadian $ is 10% less than the US dollar. And these contracts are paid in US dollars.
      Molson will not go for receiving revenues in Canadian and paying out crazy contracts in US dollars. Not like some of the stupid GM’s and owners around this league. Molson will win a Cup for us by being an astute businessman.!

      • Chris says:

        This argument is irrelevant: the salary cap is in US dollars, and the Canadiens have historically spent right to the cap as the team with the third highest revenues. So regardless of Subban, the Canadiens will have their revenues in Canadian dollars and will proceed to spend ~$70 million in US dollars on players.

        The only argument that can be made is that giving Subban too big a share of that cap makes it impossible to build a winning team. It is purely a hockey decision. Montreal has the money to pay him, so if they decide not to, it is because Molson, Bergevin and the coaching staff feel that they can get more value from that money.

  33. Phil C says:

    Why does everyone assume that it is the Habs who are playing hardball? Meehan has a reputation of being a tough negotiator too. It coud easily be the Subban camp who are committed to take this to the brink of arbitration to squeeze out every last dime. Or they are exacting a measure of revenge now that they have more leverage for the way the last negotiation went, thinking ahead to their next negotiation with the Habs, sending a message.

    It takes two to tango, the Habs can’t force him to sign. For all we know he wants to go to arbitration so that he can be a UFA in two years. I think that is unlikely but possible.

    Anyway, if it is Meehan dragging this out, those like Weekes who are reacting hysterically are playing right into his hands.

    • HabinBurlington says:

      It is imperative to view these negotiations with a sense of hysteria, it makes it much easier to deal with prior to finding out the final outcome.

    • Luke says:

      Hi Phil!

      I just posted something very similar below. I feel this is about more than hockey. I don’t think its a matter of revenge for the ‘bridge’ but just business.

      But, considering at that time PK was coming off his ELC with no negotiating leverage, still remained unsigned through the camp and into the season. Should we really be surprised that this round of negotiations should be more difficult?

      I wonder if Meehan and PK are not looking for a short term deal. 2 or 3 years. Large money now, than UFA-windfall.

      PK’s more than a player, he’s a brand, and I suspect that influences his side of the negotiations.

      • Phil C says:

        We were definitely on the same wavelength! You bring up a scary point for Habs fans. Seeing Subban and McDonagh in Ranger blue would be hard to take…

  34. Pucknut says:

    Can anyone explain to me if or how signing bonuses affect the Cap; if at all ?

    It seems to me that Shea Weber is making 27M/yr.

    Just curious.

    • HabinBurlington says:

      All salary and signing bonus money are added together and divided by term of deal to make the cap hit. Players can indeed make much more money than the cap hit.

      It is important to remember that the Shea Weber contract was prior to the new CBA where the stipulations are much different, no more cheap final years of a contract are allowed.

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      Bonuses are ‘buyout proof’. If a player’s contract is bought out, he gets 2/3 of his salary, and 100% of his bonus.

      Further, bonuses are lockout proof. During the last lockout, the Flyers structured Shea Weber’s offer sheet to scare off the Preds, by paying him $14M the first four years of the deal, with $13M coming as a bonus. This was to be paid on July 1 of each season, regardless of a work stoppage. So the year of the lockout, Shea Weber got paid his 13 million bonus, plus about half his wage of 1 million, since half the games were played.

      David Clarkson’s agent structured his deal with the Leafs to be in large part payable as bonuses, so if they try to buy him out they’ll save very little on their cap and in real money.

      It’s somewhere between a toothless attack and a vicious homage.–Paul Rudd

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      When looking at Shea Weber’s CapGeek page, his NHL Salary is listed as $14M, which is kind of misleading, maybe the column should say “Total Compensation” or something like that.

      The way to read it is that Shea Weber makes $14M this year in total, with $13M of that coming in the form of a signing bonus. In effect, he got a 13 million dollar cheque on July 1, and during the season, he’ll get paycheques totaling a million dollars.

      CagGeek has these little question mark icons strewn about their pages, if you hover your cursor over them, a little text balloon pops up to explain some of the technicalities.

      It’s somewhere between a toothless attack and a vicious homage.–Paul Rudd

  35. HabinBurlington says:

    A very clear and concise link was posted by Commandant below regarding “PK Gate”, as others replied, I wish more of the mainstream media could be honest in their reporting. They know all the real truths in this negotiation but choose the TMZ sensationalizing of the story.

    Thanks Ben!

    • habstrinifan says:

      It is, as is Commandant’s style, clear and well researched. And does take a calming approach. IT deserves praise. But why is everyone(media) else worthy of condemnation as choosing “the TMZ sensationalizing”.

      Isn’t a sentence like the following extracted from the article as editorially subjective as you would find almost anywhere.

      “Despite the fact that he has shown a willingness to use less favorable negotiating tactics before, such as sitting out games, it is unlikely that Subban will ever sit in an arbitration.”

      I may be absolutely WRONG and apologise to the author if that is the case, but I do not recall Subban ‘sitting out… games’. If my recall is correct, the CBA precluded a player who did not have a contract from attending training camp. In fact it may have been Commandant himself who enlightened the site on that clause.

      Under that clause that statement then is minimally negative.
      My apology.. if my recall is WRONG.

      “Protest Rogers blackout of Habs game…sign at:

      • HabinBurlington says:

        And that is the beauty of this forum, we can look at the exact same event/situation two completely different ways.

        My TMZ comment was directed at comments like I saw Weekes tweet yesterday, calling the Habs despicable. That to me was him clearly trying to get attention to his views. I would be willing to bet that even if no deal can be negotiated and arbitration goes forward, that Meehan and PK will not view the Habs as having been despicable towards them.

        • habstrinifan says:

          Meehan himself said there is no intentions from either side of creating the kind of demonization that is being done RIGHT NOW by many HERE.

          I saw the ask of 8.5 and the offer of 5.25 as great and reasonable starting points.(my very first post on the news)… and then I had to run and hide in ignorance as I read how stupid and blind I am to the intricacies of it all. While the media is coming up on the side of the ‘dickering around’ being the HABS, HIO is now replete with all the self-righteous CRAP that they are a better ‘Canadien’ in ‘heart and soul’ than P.K… and how they ‘support the crest’.

          Maybe I am envious cause I have never experienced that level of ‘insideness’ and ‘acceptance’ into the honoured Canadiens family.

          “Protest Rogers blackout of Habs game…sign at:

      • Luke says:

        “Despite the fact that he has shown a willingness to use less favorable negotiating tactics before, such as sitting out games, it is unlikely that Subban will ever sit in an arbitration.”

        That bugs me as well. He did not sit out. He did not Hold-Out.

        He was unsigned. He did not have a contract. He could not play or be with the team.

        • on2ndthought says:

          yep, this is why UCE wants people to agree on terminology (he’s a ‘stickler’). otherwise it is not a conversation

          “a cannonading drive”

  36. JohnBellyful says:

    CH 24 during the hockey season
    PK 24 during the off-season

    Google search Subban: About 1,180,000 results
    C’mon, people, 2 million’s within reach before arbitration.
    Let’s do it!

  37. Walmyr says:

    Good morning!

    Go Alex Go!!!


  38. Chester says:

    His Flashyness values himself above Shea Weber and Drew Doughty.
    Significantly above. I appreciate his ability to skate out of the zone and his shot from the point but that’s about it.
    Sign him for a year, then trade him for a real defenceman.
    Go Habs

    • awesomerino says:

      Ugh. “Fans” like you are the problem.

      • Chester says:

        I guess you don’t appreciate a difference of opinion?

        • Cal says:

          Sometimes, it’s fun to be on the other side of the fence. More battles and exchanges that way, leading to a greater understanding of Life, the Universe, and Everything!

        • Hstands4Hockey says:

          It’s not an opinion, it’s nonsense.

          Rule #76: No Excuses, Play Like a Champion!

          • Chester says:

            He wasn’t played during the Olympics.
            Why wouldn’t Babcock play him?
            Defensive liability? Probably Therrien has the same opinion?

    • IF PK Subban was allowed to play a 200 foot game, you would see a big difference in his game. MT needs to turn him loose and let him take the game to another level. Until that is allowed, we ONLY can see Subban play the coach’s way.

      Just for argument sake!! Where will the Habs place IF Subban decides to sit out for a year? Your thoughts?

    • habs-fan-84 says:

      I’m guessing you do not understand that the Doughty and Weber contracts were signed under the previous CBA and at a lower cap. Further, I suggest looking at the salary structure for both Weber and Doughty.

      Ideally, you would look at the cap hit at the time the contract was signed and divide it by the team salary cap to determine the percent that that contract takes up on the team. Unfortunately, under the previous CBA it still makes comparing contracts signed under the two (CBAs) very difficult. Needless to say, Subban will not be making more money than Weber.

  39. jrshabs1 says:

    8.5/mill over 8 years is not unreasonable for P.K. The Habs will still have 3.1 mill in the bank. The cap is going up next year, what’s the problem? It doesn’t matter what regime is calling the shots the Hab drama is always constant. No matter what P.K. is worth every penny.

    Go Habs Go!!!!!

  40. John Q Public says:

    Smurf meme July 01 2014

  41. Savardian Spin-o-rama says:

    The Subban saga rages on…

    First is was all the angst over the bridge contract, then the repeated benchings of last season, and now the arbitration. Clearly (to me anyway), this is NOT a team “in love” with the player in question. You can read all you want about pro sports being a business and that it’s nothing personal when a team chooses to play hardball with a player the way the Canadiens have with PK. Reminds me of a buddy who fell crazy in love with a girl from the better side of the tracks — the side with the nicer houses and flashier cars. It wasn’t long before he was down on bended knee asking for her hand in marriage. She said yes but on one condition: he had to sign a prenuptial. He agreed. A month before the wedding, buddy called the whole thing off. Why? Because it started to feel like a business deal. Where’s the love? buddy asked. I wonder if PK is starting to ask himself the same question….

    ~~ You’ve been spun ~~

    • Loop_Garoo says:

      If PK still has a problem with the “benchings” that happened what twice for a few minutes last season, then he needs to be traded, quickly, because he’s 4.

    • Luke says:

      It’s funny, what was one benching (for ~10 minutes) has morphed into “repeated benchings.”

      Why is all about the team playing hardball with PK. We have no evidence to suggest that PK isn’t the one driving the hard bargain.

      Perhaps the Habs offered 8×8.5, but PK & Meehan want 8×12. Perhaps PK’s side doesn’t want 6,7 or 8 years. Perhaps in negotiations he consistently asked for 1 or 2 year deals. Perhaps he wants to cash in now and then really cash in as an UFA.

      Yet, all we hear about is how the Habs should have PK signed, long term, by now.

      Everyone take two steps back and consider something else…

      Perhaps Meehan and PK are orchestrating a much bigger plan here, and the Habs aren’t that big part of it.
      The next 2 years as the top paid Hab, some PK-brand building with the game’s oldest, most honoured, franchise and then as a 28 year old, UFA is off to Hollywood or NYC for the richest contract in league history and maximum exposure.

      He’s got the charisma and savvy to pull it off. He has the media presence and exposure to suggest he’s building towards something more than being an NHL defenseman.

      I wouldn’t be surprised if this is about more than hockey… and it’s not about 10 minutes in Philadephia.

  42. Maritime Ronn says:

    Just a note – IF nothing happens today-tonight up to midnight, or even tomorrow morning up to 8:45 AM (Arbitration hearing starts at 9:00) that still doesn’t mean a deal won’t get done.

    This could go to 8:59 right outside the Arbitration hearing room….

    The Avs- Ryan O’Reilly RFA negotiations:

    “Elizabeth Neumeier, a member of the National Academy of Arbitrators, was just about to hear opening arguments in “Avalanche v. Ryan O’Reilly.”

    Outside a Toronto conference room where she sat, Avs brass Joe Sakic and Greg Sherman, along with O’Reilly and his agent, Pat Morris, were about to head in for a 9 a.m. arbitration hearing.

    “We were right outside the door, ready to do this,” Sakic said.
    Suddenly, the realization came to both parties:
    We don’t have to do this; we can still strike a deal if we want.

    Before Neumeier accepted the parties into her room, Sakic and O’Reilly shook hands on a deal.

    *** Agent Pat Morris:
    “I said to Joe, ‘If you win, you also lose,’ and that everybody would lose — the club, the player and the fans,” Morris said.

  43. HairyHabist says:

    A few Don Meehan negotiated contracts.

    Drew Doughty: 8yrs, $56 mil, 2011 – 2019, cap hit $7mil/yr
    Steve Stamkos 5yrs, $37.5 mil, 2011 – 2016, cap hit $7.5mil/yr
    Brad Richards: 9yrs, $60 mil, 2011 – 2020, cap hit $6.66mil/yr

    Richards was a compliance buy out after only 3yrs of his contract.

    Meehan was quoted in an interview with Elliotte Friedman this past Wed. “Our objective…is to reach a settlement with Montreal on a long term contract.”

    My guess: Meehan wants an 8yr contract for Subban with a cap hit minimum of $9mil / season.

    • Maritime Ronn says:

      Zack Parise: 13 years/$98M
      David Clarkson: 7 years/$36.7M
      Dion Phaneuf: 7 years/$49M

      • HairyHabist says:

        There’s a lot of dubious money in some of those contracts.

        Players need to show they’ve reached that level before they get paid that way long term. Not just have the potential to get there.

        • Maritime Ronn says:

          It’s also Meehan’s job to get the most…and let’s not forget that his own earnings are in direct relation to the contracts he negotiates via percentage fee, fixed fee, and other services rendered such as tax planning or overall financial planning and legal advice.

          • HairyHabist says:

            That’s what I’m trying to point out. Meehan has a history of getting GM’s to over pay.

  44. UKRAINIANhab says:

    Some people (even some of our reputable posters) do not value PK enough…

    Like it or not he will be a rich hab for a long time, deal with it.

    He also completely deserved the Norris.

    • HairyHabist says:

      It’s not just about PK.

      Is Subban worth $2.5 mil / season more than Price, $3.25 mil more than Markov, or $4.5 mil more than Pacioretty?

      MB can’t give him $9 mil / season without destroying the salary stability on his team. Not to mention messing with the locker room chemistry. Plus PK hasn’t yet earned that number.

      • Loop_Garoo says:

        That argument is just not accurate. The salary comparison also does not matter as they were all signed under vastly different circumstances. The players on the team understand that it is each individuals responsibility to come to a contract. PK has earned half of Price for the last 2 years, which was irrelevant to anything, just as the fact that PK will earn more for the next few years is irrelevant. Price’s next contract when it comes up will put him back in front likely, then PK.

        The players (for the most part) understand the business side, and we shouldn’t assume they are going to act like spoiled little kids.

        • HairyHabist says:

          In a salary cap structure you can’t win as a team if you over pay your players. PK hasn’t yet earned $9 mil per season. $7.5 to $8mil tops. But not $9mil.

          I think $40 to $42mil for 5yrs or $48 to $50mil for 6yrs would be good. That way PK doesn’t lose his back end potential and the Habs don’t over pay.

          • Loop_Garoo says:

            Ideally, you don’t pay for past performance, but for future. Scott Gomez got paid for his past performance, PK will get paid for his future, much much better. I really hope it is one or eight year contract, in the long run a 5 year will be much more expensive when we pay him 15 million per for the years that would have been 6,7,8, on an 8 year deal, if we sign him instead of someone else.

      • awesomerino says:

        Is PK worth $3.25M more than Markov? Um, yes. Easily.

        Pacioretty signed a sweetheart deal coming off of a horrific injury. Moreover, not only is he the streakiest player on the Canadiens, but he’s both mentally and physically soft.

        Carey signed the best deal that the market would bear at the time, and even then, people like you still questioned his game.

        PK Subban is an elite player – not just defenseman, but player – in the NHL. Every advanced possession metric, traditional statistic, and anecdotal evidence supports that. Not only that, but he went Next Level before our very eyes in this year’s playoffs, rising to the occasion time and again under unprecedented scrutiny.

        In short, yeah, he has earned it. And only the most embittered, myopic “fans” would say otherwise.

        • HairyHabist says:

          Insult is a bully’s excuse for debate. Take it elsewhere.

          • awesomerino says:

            I assume you’re referring to my use of embittered and myopic? Are those insults, or my characterization of the view that: a.) PK hasn’t earned a big pay day; b.) that it would adversely affect the dressing room, and; c.) that it would ruin what you call the team’s salary stability? Because I happen to find that view to be shortsighted and resentful.

        • Loop_Garoo says:

          There is nothing soft about Patches. He may not hit hard or throw a lot checks, but that guy has fought through a lot, never complained, and never stopped working hard. He has definitely earned the right to not be insulted like that.

          • awesomerino says:

            See, I don’t know that soft is an insult, so much as it’s a characterization. By your own admission, he doesn’t play a physical game, and he certainly doesn’t go to the dirty areas with anything resembling abandon. But that doesn’t mean he’s a bad player by any means. Quite the opposite! You can be soft and good. Furthermore, I’d argue that the horrific injuries from which he’s very admirably battled back are the reason he forces himself to play a softer physical game.

            As far as the mental side of it is concerned, I mean, he’s been pretty up front about how personally he takes his scoring funks, and the toll they take on him.

        • Un Canadien errant says:

          Two seasons ago, he hurt his wrist in the eighth game of the season against the Panthers, knocking him out of the game. There were whispers that he might be out for weeks. He played in the next game and scored two goals plus an assist in a 5-1 win against Philadelphia. After the game he allowed that doctors recommend he sit out a couple of games to avoid the risk of aggravating the injury, but he didn’t want to miss a game against the Flyers. I didn’t see any clowns running around then squawking that he was soft.

          Look, you want to take a position that he doesn’t play physical enough, that you wish that he’d bodycheck more, muck and grind in the corners, joust in front of the net to get more garbage goals, then say that, precisely. Don’t say that he’s ‘soft’, because that’s inaccurate and untrue. It’s actually lazy and stupid to say that.

      • Ian Cobb says:

        Hairy is scary correct with his assessment. 6mil. is max. I have said this many times. The Rocket’s largest contract was around 5 thousand a year!

  45. JohnBellyful says:

    Preview of third film in popular series starring Despicable MB. Unlike the first two, which were computer-animated 3D, this one’s strictly 1D.

    • on2ndthought says:

      from the 4th period:
      ” The Canadiens filed a one-year, $5.25 million offer through arbitration, while Subban’s camp is asking for $8.5 million.
      While though numbers have been strategically presented in the event the two sides cannot agree to a deal and arbitration is the last resort, it’s believed the Canadiens are hoping to sign Subban to a long-term deal worth between $6.5 million to $7 million, per season.

      Subban’s camp is believed to be looking at between $7.5 million and $8 million, per year, on a long-term contract.

      Both parties appear set on a long-term commitment — seven or eight years, a source confirmed — but the barrier currently revolves around Subban’s annual salary.”

      This is the most detailed report I have seen. Are they picking these numbers out of thin air, or do they have inside info?

      I think most HIO would be happy with AAV of $7.25 to 7.5M.

      “a cannonading drive”

  46. Maritime Ronn says:

    Adidess writes
    @Maritime Ronn

    So Norris Trophy voters may have been influenced in their choice of Subban a year ago by not really seeing him play? Yeah, because otherwise …

    If we repeat this, will we realize how it sounds? First of all, how do we know things like this, to feel so comfortable using them as justification?
    First of all, that was a cherry pick of the post which mostly lauded and congratulated at the end, a deserved Norris win…yet I can see how your ever consistent Subban sensitivities may have missed that.

    To answer your question, a knowledgeable decades long member of the Professional Hockey Writers Association is a long time great acquaintance.
    The PHWA has close to 200 members that can vote on Major Trophies such as the Norris-Hart-Calder-Lady Byng-Conn Smythe-Masterton. The Vezina is voted on by the GMs, and the Lindsay by the players

    We chatted after the voting and this person mentioned several west coast/west conference members did not see PK (amongst several others…) play “Live” and only saw some TV ‘season’ games on which the trophy is awarded or highlight packages or some games that had recorded….

    As mentioned and is common knowledge, print media budgets have been slashed to the bone – especially when one considers what most US cities would consider a 1B or Tier II Pro Sport after the NFL-MLB-NBA.

    These same heavily consulted their Eastern friends…many that have covered the game much longer and grew up with it.
    Did they influence the vote? You can decide if so…
    Did some just consult ‘points scored’ a la Karlsson the year before? Again, you can decide.

    As for does this association ever get things wrong?
    What about voting Ovechkin to the All Star team as a right AND left winger?

    From Kevin Allen its President:
    ” We are troubled by the all-star voting results, and plan to take a closer look at the events that led to Ovechkin winning All-Star acclaim at TWO positions.
    We know we got this wrong, and our objective is to make sure it never happens again.”

    • Adidess says:

      This is not called cherry-picking, Ronn. It is called focusing on the headline of your post. Of everything you said, this was the most consequential statement.

      Whether you think Subban deserves some credit for winning the Norris isn’t particularly news-worthy or shocking. He won it, and you have probably acknowledged him before. That you can “prove” he won the trophy by a set of circumstances that is unusual, to the point of making his Norris recognition more questionable than previous ones, except Karlsson’s, is the most intriguing point to me. That’s why I highlighted it.

      You can make whatever judgement you want on my motives, but sorry, I see myself as a thinking person, and that’s what I strive to be. Not interested in being anyone’s apologist, I’m not wired that way. Not interested in personal attacks either, I like a good exchange.

      • Maritime Ronn says:

        You asked a question and I answered. I could have elaborated with more critical details concerning the Writer’s Fraternity….but you appear to be a smart fella that can read between the lines .

  47. Commandant says:

    Understanding NHL Arbitration and the fact that Subban and the Habs are not really over $3 million apart/year on a long-term deal.

    Go Habs Go!

    • kerrgte says:

      … another excellent article explaining how things work.

    • Cal says:

      A very informative read, especially for those who believe PK is being treated unfairly. Well done.

    • Maritime Ronn says:

      It’s interesting that few writers – if any, took the time to download the CBA (10 seconds) and easily go to Section 12.9 to read the very easy and simple rules of how Arbitration works.

      The excerise would have taken no more than 15 minutes, but bombastic quotes and Tweets usually wins in this day and age

    • secretdragonfly says:

      Perhaps you could forward this to Kevin Weekes 🙂

    • GrosBill says:

      Tell the guys on TSN.

      I was surprised to hear Button and others repeating the “it is an insult to PK” line I have read in comments sections and how it a ridiculous offer. Also stating their disappointment in how the Canadiens organization is handling this.

      I guess some of their guys just can’t help themselves at taking a shot at PK, the Canadiens, or both. It may be just me, but I see some guys who nitpicked PK for years now are now saying he is a 10 million dollar player.

      Hopefully, this talk is silenced today, with the announcement of Subban’s new long term deal.

  48. kerrgte says:

    thanks for sharing your research.

    I didn’t realize the set of rules that governs the negotiating process.

    the rules under the contract negotiation process as you’ve provided explain why MB submitted a seemingly low-ball offer of $5.25 mill. I had expected an offer above the $5.75 awarded to Markov. But, as you explain, PK is a RFA and not a UFA, so salaries of UFA’s don’t apply for comparison purposes.

    I’m fully confident that MB will provide PK with an excellent comp package for PK’s RFA status over the coming days. Then, when PK reaches UFA status, his salary will be re-negotiated to reflect that of his peers in the league.

  49. Steven says:

    So, Mueller signed with the Blues.

    Too bad. I still think he’d have been worth the gamble.

  50. ClutchNGrab says:

    I read a few things that made me roll my eyes today. One of them being “How Subban can ask for 8.5M when better defencemen like Weber and Suter make less then that?”

    Here’s an answer, look at their contract structure. Makes you wonder why the NHL only punished the Devils for the Kovalchuk contract.

    1st year (2012): 14 M + 13 M Bonus
    2nd year: 14 M + 13 M Bonus
    3rd year: 14 M + 13 M Bonus
    4th year: 14 M + 13 M Bonus

    1st year (2012): 12 M + 10 M Bonus
    2nd year: 12 M + 10 M Bonus
    3rd year: 11 M + 5 M Bonus
    4th year: 9 M

    1st year (2010): 8 M + 3 M Bonus
    2nd year: 8 M + 2 M Bonus
    3rd year: 8 M + 1.5M Bonus
    4th year: 7.65M + 1 M Bonus

    While negotiating, Mehan can use those names for PK’s contract, but in front of the arbitrator, if it comes to that, it will be another story. The one interview that I heard that explained the process clearly was with Andre Lepage, an attorney who represents teams in arbitration hearings (went to at least 75 and is assigned to PK’s case) on 98.5fm.

    If you don’t understand French, here are the highlights:

    – The team and the player’s representative exchange a brief of a maximum of 40 pages that contains about 100 to 200 exhibits 48 hours before the hearing. After that each side prepares their rebuttal.

    – No previous offer made by the Canadiens or the player’s camp can be used during the arbitration hearing. That means if Bergevin made a 7.25 offer to Subban last week, the Subban camp can’t use that number as a point of reference, they have to use the official 5.25 Million offer.

    – There is a list of comparable players and contracts to use. For example, no contract signed by an unrestricted free agent player can be used during Subban’s hearing, that eliminates Markov, Letang, Phaneuf, etc.

    – There are no clear guidelines on how to read a comparable contract. Some judges will look at the cap hit while others will look at the annual salary amounts.

    – Even if the list include a player, the circumstances of how the contract was given can invalidate it. A contract rewarded through an offer sheet is an example.

    – Talking about example, apparently Cammalleri tried to used Vanek’s contract in his negotiation in 2007, he failed for that exact reason. Vanek’s contract was the result of an offer sheet.

    – Any contract that is ended can’t be used. The contract awarded to Weber during his arbitration in 2011 can’t be used.

    Makes you wonder why the media can’t put on air qualified professionals instead of clowns for which the only purpose seems to be to stir the pot.

  51. DipsyDoodler says:

    Have we traded PK to the Leafs yet?

    Moving. Forward.

    • EL_PRESEDENTE says:

      I hear it is Kadra Reimer and a 2nd

      If you are crazy, you can be discharged from the army. But you have to apply for the discharge, and applying demonstrates that you are not crazy. As a result, you will not be discharged.

  52. EL_PRESEDENTE says:

    Its gonna be 27 degrees here in Surrey. One of the few days people regret not having AC

    If you are crazy, you can be discharged from the army. But you have to apply for the discharge, and applying demonstrates that you are not crazy. As a result, you will not be discharged.

  53. Adidess says:

    I think tomorrow will be exciting. Unfortunately, we won’t get to live it here together, because this site will likely explode : )

    Hopefully, we can re-connect at some point during the day…

  54. edtheh says:

    How anyone thinks PK’s value is more than Weber, Suter, Doughty, Eric Karlsson and Duncan Keith is beyond me. On the other hand, how can the Habs offer him less than Markov? They messed up last time signing to a 2yr deal. Now they offer 1 year? Doesn’t make any sense. He does not command the game as the guys I mentioned above, yet, but he will soon enough. Pay him 7-7.5 for 5 years and put it to rest.

    • Loop_Garoo says:

      At the time with the info at hand, the 2 year deal last time was a good risk for MB to take. It paid off this year, if that cap hit was higher there would have been one less veteran on the team this year. As I have said, any contract signed before this year has minimal value as a comparison, simple because the cap has gone up. Also many of those contracts, acutally all I think, were signed under the old cba, completely different. Anyhow, 8×8 itll be.

    • habsgod says:

      actually he does pk can take over a game like those defencemaen you mentioned and i think he’s better than all of them

  55. Mattyleg says:

    I don’t care if Subban goes to arbitration.
    It’s fine.
    They’ll just pin a number on the deal, and it’ll be a neutral party, and everyone will be fine with it.

    I don’t understand the hand-wringing and kerchief-waving.

    —Hope Springs Eternal—

  56. CharlieHodgeFan says:

    Well, tomorrow’s overtime on this contract cr^p – let’s hope Subban doesn’t go to the shootout.

  57. HairyHabist says:

    Canadiens don’t sign 8yr deals. Their preferred term for their top players is 5yrs.

    PK’s 2yr RFA value is about $14.5 mil. $16.5 to $17 mil total for the next 2yrs. 5th year $9.5 to $10 mil.

    Close to $42 mil over 5yrs. I believe Bergevin could live with that.

    If a deal doesn’t get done, I think it’ll be because PK (Meehan) wants $45 mil +. Which would be a cap hit of at least $9 mil per season on a 5yr deal.

    PK hasn’t yet proven he’s worth that. And Bergevin can’t do that without disrupting the salary stability on his team.

    • Adidess says:

      Ok, but a 5-year deal would be very interesting. It would set PK to hit the unrestricted free agent market at the age of 30. I am thinking PK’s camp might be comfortable with that, but should we be?

      2019 sure is a long way away, but we better hope PK doesn’t continue to improve. Shea Weber is turning 30 next year, imagine we’d be saying goodbye to a player of that calibre then, if Subban keeps on the current trajectory.

    • Loop_Garoo says:

      Just because other GM’s haven’t signed 8 year deals does not mean MB won’t, and there have been a couple 6 year ones.

  58. BriPro says:

    Hi everyone.
    As most of you know, my wife, my daughter, grandson and I are in Cape Cod and our access to Wifi is very limited.
    That being said, I opened this site to the disturbing news of the Subban negotiations.
    But in scrolling very quickly, I clicked on the link pertaining to little Alex and his fight with meningitis.
    His courageous fight puts life’s importance into perspective.
    I read his dad’s post on HIO to my wife who’s now in tears.

    Congratulations to all of you who contributed and all the well-wishers.
    I’m so proud of this fine group of people.
    In being down here, I missed my opportunity to by my summit ticket, but I’ll be sure to see you all at Hurley’s.

    You’re a great bunch and I wish you all well.

    And to little Alex, courage to you little man, and keep up the good fight.
    We’ll all see you in October.


  59. Buzz Lightbeer says:

    Got tickets to Nov 8 game vs. Minnesota to watch Guy Lapointes jersey retired plus all access to retired players lounge/suite. My second time visiting Montreal to see a game. Pretty excited.

  60. PK says:

    I think that MB is astute and we should have an announcement tomorrow. I have seen a lot of consternation on this thread about the possibility of arbitration on August 1st. I would be surprised and disappointed if it came to this.

    Dare I say, if Subban is not a Hab for the long term, the Cup may be further away than we think.

    >>>> Les Canadiens sont là
    _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

    “Une équipe de hockey sur glace de l’île de Mont-Royal va gagner la Coupe de Lord Stanley à 24 reprises dans le 20e siècle et trois fois au cours du 21e siècle.”

    – Nostradamus, 1552

  61. Mavid ® says:

    Last minute decision to enter a draw at work..and I won..3 tickets to see the RedBlacks this saturday..its been ages since I have been to a CFL game should be fun

    Weed Wacker Grandma Smurf

  62. myron.selby says:

    OK – all you chicken littles who think the Habs messed this up and PK will walk in 2 years – how many will come back when the new 6 to 8 year deal is announced and admit they were out to lunch?

    • Adidess says:

      Nuances would help here. Few people are saying this WILL go to arbitration (how would they know?).

      Because it is 11th hour, people FEAR it could go to arbitration, which is one of just two ways it could go. They’re talking about what it would mean if it does. In fact, most people (from my reading) are actually hoping that it doesn’t get to that, so I don’t understand why you would not expect all fans to be happy, if a deal is announced tomorrow.

  63. CJ says:

    I love hockey. I love the feel of a stick in my hands as I cradle the puck. I love the sound of sharpened skates cracking ice or the puck crashing into the boards. I love the feeling of being inside the Bell Centre when the Canadiens score, or that peculiar feeling watching grown men labour to establish position on the cycle or in a board battle. I love the unheralded play that stops a rush, extends an offensive zone scoring chance or draws a penalty. I love watching, talking and living hockey, 365 days of year…..

    That said, I hate the business of sports. I hate being riveted to my iPad in hopes of hearing any update on the status of a contract negotiation in the middle of summer. I hate the extremes – the insinuation that $5.25 million is insulting, when the fact is that figure represents a lifetime of labour and long hours for an entire family – perhaps beyond a single generation. I hate not knowing and being left wondering, “what if…….”

    I guess I would just as soon fast forward to training camp and the opportunity to discuss whether Gregoire could make the WJC roster for team Canada, or if Sekac could fit on the second line……

    I’ll get off my soapbox now and return to the idleness a summer storm and good book can evoke.

    Cheers, CJ

    • habcertain says:

      It is your love of watching that has created the business of sports, mad circle.

    • Adidess says:

      Really, are we going to talk about what the $5.25 million being offered to PK would mean to an entire family, with no big stars playing professional sports or making blockbuster movies ?

      Would that be a relevant topic of discussion? I’m not so sure.

      In fairness to the rest of your argument however, none of what is happening now has anything to do with what we think. Whether we feel strongly about something or not is completely irrelevant to what will go down tomorrow. Or Friday, for that matter.

  64. krob1000 says:

    Weekes comments were off base
    THE RANGERS DO PLAY HARDBALL WITH YOUNG STARS…..ask Dubinsky or Callahan…or even Zuccarello.

    The Kings and Hawks pay their stars because they paid them…with cup rings.

    There is no comparison to be made there and Weekes did not think through his comments

    • frontenac1 says:

      Like I said earlier. I am disappointed with Weekes. I thought he was a real journalist like Dowbiggin or Hodge. Unfortunately He is a just another Headline Wh#re.

  65. twilighthours says:


    “PK held out at the start of the 2012-13 season, hoping the team that had finished 27th the year before would flounder. Instead they did very well, PK gave it up, and signed.”

    Pure and utter speculation. Subban did indeed refuse to report to training camp as he was without a contract. You can call this a holdout. Why he eventually signed the deal he did we will never know.

    However, it is generally agreed that Subban went on to outplay his contract by a large margin. So if you want to discuss Subban’s track record, be sure to include the parts about how great he has been since he made the NHL.

  66. habstrinifan says:

    I have read all the posts and I have come to one conclusion.

    If Rogers screws up my internet connection on Friday,(around 10:30am) then I am gonna be writing them a freakin letter telling them to go do something racy and despicable to themselves.

    OOOOPS…. I just played the racy card… how despicable.

  67. PK says:

    Not wanting to sound like Captain Obvious,

    …..hopefully tomorrow will be a good day – turned great – in the Subban household and for the Montreal Canadiens and their fans.

    >>>> Les Canadiens sont là
    _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

    “Une équipe de hockey sur glace de l’île de Mont-Royal va gagner la Coupe de Lord Stanley à 24 reprises dans le 20e siècle et trois fois au cours du 21e siècle.”

    – Nostradamus, 1552

  68. Lafleurguy says:

    Maybe Kevin Weekes is not as articulate as Roger Federer.
    Maybe he meant to use the word deplorable.
    Maybe he was fresh off watching Despicable Me 2 with his kids.

  69. frontenac1 says:

    Don Mathews called back to the Als as coaching consultant. This is good.

  70. Adidess says:

    On whether this is a low-ball offer, I don’t feel strongly either way (although I would have liked more of a good faith offer to your superstar player). Those pointing out the Eller case have a good argument, so let’s wait and see.

    But can we all agree this will be a major, unnecessary mess, if it goes to arbitration? Because we know PK will get paid big time for the coming years, if not by us by somebody else.

    We’re all assuming it won’t go before the arbitrator, I’m not so sure anymore.

    • habcertain says:

      I also find it hard to believe this has any chance of going to arbitration, if it did I think the Habs are the bigger losers, he will move on when he gets his UFA rights, and any trade value is greatly diminished, I think MB knows this. This was the gamble when they forced the bridge contract, I don’t think they expected his market value to be as high as it currently is, so quickly, but he went out and tucked a Norris under his arm. I think they really underestimated his drive and overestimated his immaturity level. Coming out of this they need to anoint this guy as a leader, stick an A on his chest, and have MT proclaim this guy as the current cornerstone of the franchise, anything less is sour grapes, which will sour the relationship.

      • Adidess says:

        Exactly, habcertain. MB must have known this was the downside of the bridge deal he insisted upon 2 years ago. I would think that when he opted for the bridge then, he sat down with the team owner and discussed the ramifications. ‘I’m not ready to commit long term, but there is a risk here, Mr. Molson. We’re likely saving a couple of millions bucks each of the next 2 years, but if Subban goes out and wins the Norris or something, we’re screwed’. And that’s where Geoff would have said, ‘I see Marc, but yes I’m on board’.

        If that conversation did not take place, Molson is probably not in a stellar mood right now. He’d have the right to wonder, maybe for half a minute, whether his GM has the top-notch asset valuation skills and the level of foresight he initially thought.

        We all understand why MB made that decision at the time, and it made some sense. But in the highly competitive environment of sports team management, Bergevin’s job is to make the best decision, not just good decisions. In hindsight, it was a good, prudent decision, maybe not the best one. Hence, it’s ‘show the money time’!

      • Cal says:

        2 years ago, MB was setting a precedent AND managing the Cap. The Habs wouldn’t have been able to make the moves they did last season without wiggle room. The situation is better right now. There is $11.65mil of space. If PK gets in millions $7,$7.5, $8.5, $9,$9,$9.5, $10, $10- the hit would be $8.8mil, leaving $2.85 mil.
        Budaj goes to Hamilton. Another $900k off the cap.
        There’s room to pay PK.
        Speculating about PK being dissed and just waiting to run to UFAville, is just panicking for the sake of it.

    • twilighthours says:

      “… I would have liked more of a good faith offer to your superstar player…”

      Nailed it.

  71. Adidess says:

    @Maritime Ronn

    So Norris Trophy voters may have been influenced in their choice of Subban a year ago by not really seeing him play? Yeah, because otherwise …

    If we repeat this, will we realize how it sounds? First of all, how do we know things like this, to feel so comfortable using them as justification? Is there a shortage of ‘reasons’ people will find to explain away the Norris win and simply not give the guy is due?

    Somehow in their folly, voters did not give the Norris to Phaneuf, believe it or not. And somehow Plekanec did not end up with Toews’ Selke either. I can’t believe this.

    • twilighthours says:

      It’s just as valid to assume that west coast sports writers saw Subban play a bunch as it is to assume they didn’t

      • Cal says:

        I guess they never watch any east coast games, even though they report on hockey.

        • Adidess says:

          And if you think about it, West-coast voters spent the entire shortened season watching Doughty, Suter, Pietrangelo and Weber play. But somehow they individually and collectively thought of giving the trophy to the guy they didn’t get to see. That’s like the familiarity bias, in reverse. Who knew it was so powerful?

    • Phil C says:

      I read it as they just voted for the defenseman with the most points. To be fair, Erik Karlsson received much of the same criticism the year before, so I don’t think this is unique to Subban.

      • Adidess says:

        Valid point, Phil C. I’m not saying this is necessarily UNIQUE to Subban, I’m saying it’s not right. Also, how do we know voters did not watch? Unless we want to believe it…

        • Phil C says:

          You’re right, they may have watched him play. They just did not get the opportunity to see him live in their own rink like in a non lock-out year. We are talking about the same people who voted Ovechkin onto the all-star team for both LW and RW, so if they don’t even know what position he plays, it’s not hard to believe that the some voters don’t watch every player.

          Regardless, even if it is true, all of the defensemen suffered the same advantage/disadvantage with the voting, so it was a level playing field. I agree we should not be diminishing the accomplishment.

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