New offer “about as good” as NHLPA can do

Donald_001web

 The Canadian Press is reporting that Donald Fehr says a new proposal in collective bargaining is “about as good” as the NHL Players’ Association can do.

The offer was tabled during a meeting in New York on Wednesday morning.

The NHL is expected to offer a response on Wednesday afternoon.

Read more by clicking here.

To read the NHLPA memo outlining the latest proposal, click here.

(Photo by Chris Young/The Canadian Press)

212 Comments

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  2. Ron says:

    Bulldogs and IceCaps tied 1-1 middle of 2nd. Blunden from Gallagher

  3. Ron says:

    Another interesting tweet from this afternoon from Michael Grange on NHLPA proposed offer and their 5 year CBA plan: ” Couldn’t have anything to do with the 100th Anniversary of the NHL coming up in 5 years could it ? ” Makes you wonder if the Donald has more plans.

  4. Ian Cobb says:

    Donald Fehr says a new proposal in collective bargaining is “about as good” as the NHL Players’ Association can do.

    I have news for you Donald!! You will have to move a very long way yet, before the boys will start to play this “GAME” again!

  5. Mavid says:

    Bullshit…so sick of it…

  6. Haborama says:

    this just in from Fehr: “HAMRLIK MY A*S”

  7. Ron says:

    1-0 IceCaps at end of 1st. Dogs out shot 8/2. IceCaps scored with 9 sec left in period

  8. Sean Bonjovi says:

    Did any NHL players sign with European teams today?

  9. bwoar says:

    You guys talk about union busting like it’s a bad thing.

    Sure, a union of millionaire sportsmen must be protected at all costs, right? If they can get to the NHLPA, they can get to “anyone”!

    Maybe where some of you live, the Union Brotherhood of Benevolent Unicorns (UBBU) is hard put upon by the evil Horselords, but most of the unions I’ve seen do a good job of protecting labour rights while simultaneously insuring everything is done in the least efficient and most costly way possible. (Manitoba Nurses Union, I’m looking at you, but you aren’t alone)

    The group of people I’d like to see take the hit are d-ckheads like Allan Walsh, who are there feeding off the league & its players, doing an job that’s completely unnecessary if the NHLPA is the big protector of workers’ rights.

    And, I’ll put it out there, if Herb Brooks were to spontaneously implode, would anyone really miss him?

  10. HabFab says:

    @TSNBobMcKenzie: Player outrage aside, I get the feeling two sides are finally in same universe but it’s how they get into same solar system that’s dicey.

    My sentiments exactly.

  11. HabFab says:

    Pressers with both parties on TSN. I hate to say this but the little weasel did good with the fan at the end of his.
    http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/

  12. Lawrencetown Liquor Pigs says:

    So do the owners realize that there is no product worth spending what they want fans/sponsors to without the 600 players that are locked out? Just curious.

    ______________________________________________________
    Lost a bottle of Kraken during this debacle of a season. Better gettem next year.

  13. mark-ID says:

    Happy Thankgiving to our American friends. At a time like this, I think of the NHL owners and player’s, their lives must be terribly difficult..

  14. HabFab says:

    Not sure about this???

    RenLavoieRDS – What’s next for the players. Capitulation is not an option. De-certified is. The NBA did it last year. 7 days after, lock-out was over.

  15. HabFab says:

    Does anyone know if this is correct? Did Roman lay the “hammer” down?
    nhlupdate – I definitely find the player’s tweets themselves interesting, especially the latest news of Roman Hamrlik speaking out against Donald Fehr

  16. Dust says:

    HAMILTON BULLDOGS SIGN MIKE COMMODORE TO TRYOUT CONTRACT – Interesting.

  17. habs11s says:

    http://www.theheckler.com/2012/11/20/patrick-kane-arrested-for-swi-in-switzerland/

    Patrick Kane hitting the bars before hitting the slopes…

    _____________________________________________________________

    “How would you like a job where when you made a mistake, a big red light goes on and 18,000 people boo?” -Jacques Plante

  18. Habfan10912 says:

    Good news. Louie L back in the line up for the Dogs tonight.

    ———————————–

  19. HabFab says:

    RenLavoieRDS – The good news, the war of numbers is over. The NHL and the NHLPA agreed that they are 182 million apart.

    In other news, Bettman say’s will give the NHLPA everything they want if they quit calling him names.

  20. Ron says:

    In line with Habfan10912 tweeting activity, here is one from Damien Cox. ” I presume NHLPA members will now resume their winning strategy of name calling and tweeting under the influence ”

    It can only get better..

  21. Harditya says:

    Gallagher is a tank. As bad as Bulldogs have been, he has had 6 goals in 14 games, on pace for 35 goals over a full schedule. That is pretty impressive for a rookie. I think he can make the big club next season… that’s if the lockout crap is resolved.

  22. ed lopaz says:

    when one side is holding all the “power”, all the “leverage”, it is bad leadership to lead the other side into a prolonged conflict.

    NHL hockey is not relevant to U.S. sports fans. Plain and simple. This gives the NHL owners all of the leverage they need. And since all of the historical data proves that the fans ALWAYS COME BACK, the owners can be as stubborn, as pig headed, and as “union busting” as they please.

    therefore, until NHL hockey becomes relevant, the NHLPA needs a leader who can maximize their deal JUST SHORT of a lockout or a strike.

    that was the rational and logical course of action for fehr to have taken.

    but he was the wrong man for THIS sport.

    every day that passes during the lockout the players are LOSING more and more money that they will never get back – not from this deal, and certainly not from future deals.

    selecting a hard nosed, tough negotiator like donald fehr was a terrible mistake for the players because their leadership’s toughness only prolongs their inevitable defeat.

    it is time to get on with the game on the ice.

    fehr needs to wake up to this reality, maximize what he can get for his constituents, and sign a deal immediately.

    • Cal says:

      Fehr’s rope-a-dope wait them out strategy is going to go on. It’s all he knows that works against MLB owners. Thing is, he isn’t going up against them, but he still won’t change.
      The league is playing hardball all the reasons you gave. The thing is, will they learn from it?

  23. HabFab says:

    Same as Ron, not a CBA article in fact not even hockey. This from a Russian military blog (NGO) giving a humorous view of Canada. Check out the Map of Canada :) and the animals to be aware of crossing the road;
    http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.arms-expo.ru%2F049051124050057052056050.html

    EDIT; no need to call up the NG Jim, all in fun

  24. Habfan10912 says:

    Players in full attack mode on twitter. Here’s a sample.

    ——————————–

    Brandon Prust (@BrandonPrust8) tweeted at 4:29 PM on Wed, Nov 21, 2012:
    Gary bettman’s autobiography is in stores now. It’s titled ‘how I destroyed a sport and a nation’

  25. Ron says:

    Just a slight move away from the CBA crap, the Bulldogs play their second game with the IceCaps tonight at the Mile One Centre in NFLD. Hope the kids do better tonight. Back to back games could be a problem with the travel effect thrown in. Go Dogs Go

  26. Mike D says:

    Anyone know where I can get a Puck Gary hat?

    - Honestly yours
    Twitter: @de_benny

  27. B says:

    I wonder how much the Defined Benefit Pension Plan demanded to be established by the PA’s proposal would cost the league and teams?

  28. commandant says:

    Seriously, 1.2 million per team, per season. With that difference, it looks like this isn’t even about money any more.

    2 hours to a rejection of that. NHL not even trying here.

    Go Habs Go!
    Check out Top Shelf Prospects, my Team by Team prospect reports
    http://lastwordonsports.com/

    • Cal says:

      It’s always about the money. When players and owners talk about the “principle” of a thing, they always mean the “principal” of the thing.
      December games will be probably be announced as dead on Friday. The rest of the season will be nuked within 2 more weeks.

      • commandant says:

        Its Union Busting, thats all this is. Its about the long term gain of a paralyzed NHLPA.

        Thats all the league wants. Not a deal.

        If they were looking for a deal 36 million per year over 5 years, and getting their 50/50 split at the end of it all is a big win for the owners.

        Go Habs Go!
        Check out Top Shelf Prospects, my Team by Team prospect reports
        http://lastwordonsports.com/

        • Cal says:

          Actually, it’s treating the PA the same way the PA has been treating the NHL: with moronic tweets from players who should be gagged by their union leader. Calling the commissioner and his deputy “cancers”. If the players were spoiling for a fight, they’ve found one. And they will lose. It’s the way the world works. The wealthy dictate. The rest try to grab as much as they can, but when they stop work or are locked out, they lose. It’s that simple.

          • Lizardking89 says:

            More like the owners and that little tyrant that represents said owners spoiling for a fight and trying to break the union. They offered the players an insulting first offer that the players weren’t going to take lying down. Bettman is a cancer to this league and this is the result.

    • frontenac1 says:

      Yup, Union Busting 101, 1920″s style. Pathetic

    • HabFab says:

      The NHL wasn’t going to take this offer anymore then the PA would accept the NHL “final offer” as is. This does establish where both sides stand and now they are going to have negotiate to some middle ground.

      • HabinBurlington says:

        The best news is that it appears the PA actually tabled an offer with complete economics and similar language to the NHL’s previous offer. Perhaps finally, FINALLY, negotiating can begin. Seems to be imperative that two sides in a negotiation speak the same language.

        • Cal says:

          It looks like the language is 50-50 now, not in some maybe perhaps possibly kind of future based on my very own growth projections.
          I’d like the NHLers to play in the KHL with their old Russian port-a-potty jets to transport them around and see how quick they realize how good they have it in the NHL.

      • Ron says:

        Supposed to meet again on Friday or so they tweet. Haven’t heard to much talk about how unethical the NHLPA has been on this one today since they leaked out the proposal before the NHL committee got to an office to discuss the offer. Guess it only works one way.

      • Mike D says:

        Frank, you’re correct that the NHL wasn’t just going to say “Where do we sign?”, but the reaction and response they gave to what was good proposal and a meaningful step in the owners direction was absolutely deplorable.

        - Honestly yours
        Twitter: @de_benny

  29. Cal says:

    And back to square one it is. **Golf Claps**
    These must be the same guys who negotiate repairing Montreal streets. Lots of talk, but ever more potholes.

  30. twilighthours says:

    Habfan10912,

    you’re doing it all wrong. After you get back from the gym and do the housework, say, “Honey, feel my bulging pectoralis muscles. Doesn’t the firmness of them arouse you?”

    Then you’re guaranteed success. Trust me.

  31. habsfan0 says:

    It is becoming more and more apparent that the current NHL season is all but toast.

    However, I also believe that part of NEXT season is in danger as well, and the possibility exists that we might not see NHL action until November 2013 at the earliest.

    When play does finally resume,the NHL landscape will be significantly different from what we all remembered,with the retraction of several teams,possibly the relocation of the Phoenix franchise to Quebec City,and more rules put into place designed to protect players’ safety.

    So, some good will probably come out of this seemingly unending mess.

    • Hobie Hansen says:

      Another good thing is all the prospects getting more hockey under their belts and Gomez, Kaberle and Markov contracts ticking away.

    • HabinBurlington says:

      I guess that will also be the time we see Jerry Moyes sue the NHL after the Yotes are moved. I still believe that is the real reason they are in Phoenix. Bettman knows it cannot work, but if he relocates then Moyes has a great case against the NHL, thus opening the door to teams moving franchises city to city without NHL approval, ie Oakland Raiders.

  32. Habfan10912 says:

    Fehr just stated he was disappointed in the leagues response to offer. No progress made.

    ———————————–

    • shiram says:

      I’m disappointed with both parties. I also wish we’d get less if any information on the ongoing negotiations, it just does not bring me any kind of entertainment or value, mostly frustration.

      • Habfan10912 says:

        Yep. Right there with you. I’m starting to watch a lot more college basketball then usual. I’ll be back as soon as the puck drops though. As I’ve admitted many times, I’m an addict. Sadly.

        ———————————–

    • HabFab says:

      League was not going to accept this proposal as is. BUT this now sets out the players side and we have the NHL side already set out. They will have to come to a point somewhere in between to make a deal.

      • commandant says:

        No one asked them to accept it as is.

        But the manner in which it was rejected, the words given, the swiftness of what was done, etc… tells me they aren’t interested in a meaningful discussion of the offer either.

        Go Habs Go!
        Check out Top Shelf Prospects, my Team by Team prospect reports
        http://lastwordonsports.com/

  33. Pinchy says:

    Brendan Gallagher goal on the PP last night, enjoy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RNYbTyENqI&feature=youtu.be

    • HabFab says:

      Thanks, arena looked full. Normal or Habs in town?

    • Habfan10912 says:

      Thanks Pinch. How did Tinordi look?

      ———————————–

    • Pinchy says:

      Thats a normal crowd. The ice caps have sold out every game since coming into the league last year

      Tinordi was okay. Took a tough penalty in the early minutes but looked to be doing all the little things right. It seems as if he’s still trying to get a feel for things, not being too agreesive or too conservative. Looked confident in the corners, so he is coming right along. Same with beaulieu, had some great breakout moments at one point deked through 3 guys for a breakaway, but took some bad penalties and seemed to rush things at times. Which id expect from a young offensive guy. So no worries, everything seems ok, just have to remember most of these guys are projects.

  34. habsfan0 says:

    It would be somewhat ironic if the NHL & NHLPA agree to a truce the same day that Israel & Hamas do.

  35. Mike D says:

    Here’s a good breakdown of the PA’s solution to back-diving contracts from Elliotte Friedman:

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opinion/2012/11/nhlpa-offers-remedy-for-back-loaded-contracts.html

    - Honestly yours
    Twitter: @de_benny

  36. Cal says:

    5 years is too short a term. 4 years to get to 50-50 is too long.
    Calculating a growth percentage after all this is laughable. There will be a revenue contraction that will grow every game they don’t play. Fans in Canada, this time, are well and truly pissed. Sure, hardcore fans like me will watch the game on RDS. However, I will never buy anything with a NHL logo on it ever again. It’s time for the league and its players to be treated as well as they treat the fans; like the dirt we wipe off our shoes when we go into the house.

    • B says:

      The PA could then demand more money under the next CBA in 5 years (after the split has finally trickled down to 50/50 in year 5)?

    • commandant says:

      I say that most hardcore fans will be buying tickets immediately.

      maybe you (individually) can stand strong, but I think a majority of fans who are as hardcore as us will be back within 2 months.

      The real threat here is the casual fans. If they don’t come back (especially in the US) this can halt growth.

      Go Habs Go!
      Check out Top Shelf Prospects, my Team by Team prospect reports
      http://lastwordonsports.com/

      • Hobie Hansen says:

        I’m as hardcore as they get and I won’t be buying tickets this year.

        Not only because I’m pissed off at both sides, but watching the game on a Sony home theater system ,making a kick ass dinner and drinking $2.00 beer makes a lot more sense and is just as good as being there.

        I heard Bob McCowan say the exact same thing on the radio yesterday. It’s foolish to pay $300.00 for a pair of tickets, $10.00 a beer, parking and food at these NHL arenas. And those are middle range seats.

        I love live hockey and go to a lot of junior games but paying $400 to $500 for a night out to see the NHL is a joke.

        If I’m meeting a buddy there and we buy nosebleeds and down a few beers at someone’s house prior to going I would consider it. However, I took the girlfriend last time and like I said, it was a $400 to $500 night, including a dinner before the game in Montreal.

        For $500 bucks one person can book a four night stay, flight included, in Las Vegas at a nice hotel. Or go and watch a 1-0 hockey game for a few hours.

    • Phil C says:

      The NBA just announced record revenues of $5B, up from $4B prior to their lockout, so they have not suffered any measurable damage. The NHL is probably not as worried as we would like them to be.

  37. B says:

    From Bob McKenzie: “NHLPA proposes the Upper Limit (salary cap) may not fall below 67.25 M in any year of the agreement.”

    So the PA is still insisting on decoupling the cap from revenues. They want guaranteed salary levels rather than partnering with some of the risk (it would be all on the owners side). This season’s revenues will be significantly reduced and next season’s revenues are likely to be impacted by the recent nonsense as well, yet the players still insist on some fixed / guaranteed salary levels? I don’t think that will fly very far with the league / owners. Both sides are culpable in recent foolishness and both should bear a share in the economic consequences IMO.

    • commandant says:

      They are decoupling the cap from percentage of HRR.

      Not guaranteeing the 67.25 million

      Essentially the players get 50% of HRR + the make whole provision. This is all determined through Escrow.

      The 67.25 becomes an artificial number so that teams aren’t squeezed by a cap that is 70 million right now, dropping to 59 million and being forced to trade all their players. Essentially for 2, 3 or 4 years (depending on how fast the league grows) the cap number will be 67.25 but the players will never earn that amount until revenue catches up.

      the 67.25 isn’t what will be paid, and thats where the “de-link” occurs.

      The players are linking what they actually will be paid, to what actual HRR numbers are, which is exactly what the owners want.

      Go Habs Go!
      Check out Top Shelf Prospects, my Team by Team prospect reports
      http://lastwordonsports.com/

    • B says:

      2 more recent tweets from BMcK:

      “Good catch by @KatieStrangESPN on this: In yrs 2 thru 5, players share in dollars may not be less than previous yr.”

      “NHL will find this problematic. Goes back towards “guaranteeing” dollars. In a linked-to-revenue system, those guarantees have not existed.”

      It still looks like the PA is trying to decouple salaries from revenues. I still can’t see that demand going over well at all with the other side.

      • commandant says:

        How else do you go from 57 to 50 without some guarantee that the drop in revenues to 50% from 57 isn’t going to cause escrow to increase more than the make whole provision?

        Go Habs Go!
        Check out Top Shelf Prospects, my Team by Team prospect reports
        http://lastwordonsports.com/

        • Phil C says:

          I don’t think the PA can win this one. The make whole part can be guaranteed, but the 50% portion has to be be tied to HRR. If HRR drops unexpectedly, the players need to share that pain, especially if they want to participate in any unexpected growth. There is risk for the players, but there is also risk for the owners in that they could be paying more, so it’s fair. What the PA is proposing is not fair IMO.

          • commandant says:

            The Owners keep saying… “it needs to be 50 – 50 because we have all the risk” the players are just calling their bluff on the “all the risk part”

            Also the players have no control over things like Moving a Shitty Team out of Phoenix and increasing revenues that way, or numerous other business decisions that can create risk or increase revenues. If you don’t want to give them that power, why should they have risk?

            Go Habs Go!
            Check out Top Shelf Prospects, my Team by Team prospect reports
            http://lastwordonsports.com/

          • Phil C says:

            I think the trade off for players is that they get to participate in the upside as well. The salary cap would still be $45M if the union had their way last time. Instead it is at $62M +/- 8M. That is the reward for their risk. They can’t have it both ways.

            I would also argue that sharing risk is good for the business, which is ultimately good for the players in the long run, although this is harder to prove.

          • commandant says:

            I would agree, but it would also seem the Players want things like the Phoenix situation to not continue, and have had no voice in such discussions.

            Go Habs Go!
            Check out Top Shelf Prospects, my Team by Team prospect reports
            http://lastwordonsports.com/

  38. Timo says:

    Is there a single owner for whom NHL team is his/her (are the female owners) primary business?

    • HabFab says:

      It wouldn’t be for long if so, probably only 3 are solid big money makers.

      • commandant says:

        3 are solid money makers? Define solid.

        Haven’t we seen time and time again that the Forbes numbers are wrong.

        http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2012/11/16/nhl-lockout-why-do-billionaires-keep-buying-teams-that-lose-money/

        Go Habs Go!
        Check out Top Shelf Prospects, my Team by Team prospect reports
        http://lastwordonsports.com/

        • HabFab says:

          But they know more then you…come one admit it! You will feel better afterwards.
          And that crap from some kid living in his parents bedroom…he took a county auditor with a political agenda against the Panthers parent company which also operates the Arena company and decided that since the Arena company was making money then the Panthers were making money or shouldn’t have to because the Arena company was making money. Either concept is phooey.
          The NHLPA under this CBA have auditors auditing the books of the NHL teams. If something was wrong, Fehr would be shouting it from the top of the Empire State Building. HRR is clearly defined so you have absolutely no proof to support wrong doings.
          I will give you that every Forbes figure is wrong, they are just estimates and the only ones we have from “professional financial reporters and researchers”. The NHL has claimed that the combined losses from the teams over the past two years has exceeded $120,000,000. I have heard nobody from the NHLPA dispute this. And if you add the combined losses estimated by Forbes…voila it exceeds $120,000,000 so their averaging is pretty good.

          • commandant says:

            No where did I say that the Panthers were hiding HRR.

            However neither did the county auditor.

            what they said was that the arena corporation was averaging about 10 million in profits per year, with profits falling to 1 million the year the Panthers didn’t play.

            There is no accusation of hiding money, merely that the losses are exagerrated.

            And as for Forbes, further investigation into those numbers suggests they are largely self-reported by the NHL teams themselves.

            Funilly enough, the claim that 18 teams lost money sounds a lot like

            “21 teams are losing money and 78% of revenues is being used towards salaries” which is a paraphrased conclusion of the 2004 levitt report in 2004

            or

            We pay 1.05 in salary for every $1.00 of revenue. = Gary Bettman 1994

            Go Habs Go!
            Check out Top Shelf Prospects, my Team by Team prospect reports
            http://lastwordonsports.com/

          • HabFab says:

            “The NHLPA under this CBA have auditors auditing the books of the NHL teams. If something was wrong, Fehr would be shouting it from the top of the Empire State Building.”

            The profits of the Arena would be lower during any loss of venue. The Panthers would bring in what $25-35 million gross in 40+ events to the Arena.

            I guess in this case we will just have to agree that we disagree.

  39. HabFab says:

    Apparently moderate NHLPA members had to push Fehr and more hardline members into this proposal.
    Well moderate NHL owners, it’s your turn to push Bettman and your hardliners into making a deal happen.

    • Ron says:

      Do you not feel that this proposal is much the same as the last, in that they just changed some numbers around and still want 4 years to get to the 50/50 ? Hope not and pray the NHL comes back with some tweeking to the NHLPA and not straight out make a bigger farce out of this. Although I side with the league on this I think they need to haul in their horns abit.

      • Cal says:

        The only thing this proposal will be used for is as a template for the NHL’s point by point refuting of it. However, they should be forced to read and discuss it for about 2 hours before saying there’s nothing there for them to discuss with the PA.

      • Mike D says:

        Actually Ron, from what I have seen on the proposal (which isn’t all of it), I actually thought the players made a lot of concessions to the owners.

        I have yet to see one single thing that the owners conceded to the players in ANY proposal they have made thus far.

        - Honestly yours
        Twitter: @de_benny

        • Habfan10912 says:

          I agree Mike. I think the PA has moved and as Habfab suggested it’s now in the owners hands.

          ———————————–

          • Mike D says:

            Absolutely Jim.

            BTW, I hope that things are mostly back to normal for you and your neighbours affected by Sandy.

            - Honestly yours
            Twitter: @de_benny

        • Ron says:

          I won’t be the first on here to say alot of this is beyond my scope of knowledge. But in following people like Bob McKenzie he states that this proposal is like guaranteeing dollars and that in a revenue sharing system these type guarantees have not existed. And with this he feels that will be a problem with the NHL.

          • Mike D says:

            I hear ya Ron. I don’t claim to be an expert either and also follow Bob and a bunch of other guys on twitter.

            I’m sure there are things in the PA proposal that the NHL won’t like, but they (and those who support them blindly) have to understand that they aren’t going to (or shouldn’t) get everything they want. Again, I haven’t seen a single concession from the owners to the players yet.

            - Honestly yours
            Twitter: @de_benny

      • HabFab says:

        They won’t get this deal BUT it is close to the same language of the NHL proposals…now they can talk turkey to turkey.

        I have defended the NHL against the NHLPA supporters but IMO the CBA only needs 3 adjustments;
        - higher owner HRR rate
        - more and better Revenue Sharing
        - some year to year contract value variance control

        So 2 NHL & 1 NHLPA desires, my rates for any of these is not the same as the parties pushed.

    • Mike D says:

      Yeah! Someone b!tc#sl@p Jeremy Jacobs!

      - Honestly yours
      Twitter: @de_benny

    • frontenac1 says:

      So reports out of the middle east say Egypt has brokered a cease fire between Israel and Palestine….any chance of getting some Egyptians over here to help out? I mean,if they can do that then the NHL should be a snap.

  40. HabinBurlington says:

    The Poll question is interesting, I would be curious if this was a Leaf site what the numbers would be. The arena in Toronto is constantly sold out and there are minimal tickets available for single game purchase. I recognize Montreal has sellouts also, but the number of seats available for purchase seems much greater.

    I know quite a few Leaf fans that have not been to a game at the ACC, price is the biggest factor as Scalpers get huge bucks despite the ineptitude of the team.

    • mdp2011 says:

      ACC has 3000 less seats than the Bell Center.

      Seating Capacity for ACC:
      Hockey 18,800 seats

      BC capacity is around 21 256

      • HabinBurlington says:

        I recognize that, my point is simply I wonder how many die hard leaf fans out there don’t get to watch their team play at home.

        • mdp2011 says:

          Absolutely, less tickets available, higher the price tag. Just imagine if the Leafs were actually an NHL team, prices would be astronomical.

        • Timo says:

          There are probably more of those that don’t than those that do. A lot of the seats are sold to corporations who use it to invite clients or escorts or whoever else who doesn’t give rats ass about hockey. Last time I was at Bell it was too quiet with too many people casually chatting and checking their phones than paying attention to the game.

          One fact is undeniable though – it’s hard for an average folk to afford to go to a game, especially with a family.

  41. Mike D says:

    Here is an outline of the PA’s proposal from today:

    http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409992

    - Honestly yours
    Twitter: @de_benny

    • HammerHab says:

      From the article – “This proposal does not address other items upon which we have agreed or are pending, such as health and safety, hockey issues, the “jock tax”, and international.”

      what is the “jock tax”? whatever it is it stinks.

      ———————————–

      It’ll always be Habs Inside/Out to me

  42. Thomas Le Fan says:

    The players are stupid. Shooting themselves in the foot. The owners are idiots. Shooting themselves in the other foot. They both must hate us fans. F ‘em both.

  43. habsfan0 says:

    New NHLPA proposal.

    Deal or No Deal?

    Only Howie Mandel knows for sure.

  44. Timo says:

    I am a bit confused.

    TSN says Halak to Germany – http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409975

    But this russian site says Halak to Spartak, Moscow – http://lenta.ru/news/2012/11/21/halak/

  45. myron.selby says:

    I keep seeing comments by people claiming that the players didn’t lose the last negotiations because their salaries have gone up so much in the last 7 years. This is kind of confusing a couple of very different issues.

    The NHLPA got handed their asses last time around. They essentially were forced to accept exactly what the league asked for. The players had no interest in a salary cap and lost 24% of their salaries with that deal. The league basically broke the union on that one.

    The reason the salaries increased so much is because revenues went up so quickly. The question nobody seems to consider is where player salaries would be right now without a cap. Does anyone really doubt that Sather would have continued to throw increasingly outrageous contracts at free agents (and how many of his mistakes could he really expect to unload on the Habs?)

    What would Crosby go for if he hit free agency without a cap?

    Also anyone who claims that Fehr refused to negotiate for a year ahead of the end of this CBA is plain wrong. The league never approached the NHLPA with anything until this summer. Since the league opted out of the CBA, they were the only ones who could come up with an offer. The NHLPA was perfectly happy continuing on under the existing CBA. It was always up to the league to tell them what concessions they wanted. Had the union initiated the talks it would only have made sense for them to do so if they were asking for more from the league.

    What kind of idiot would start a negotiation by saying to the other side – “we insist that you pay us 20% less than we’re getting”? The only thing the union could have done in good faith with their members would have been to ask for more from the league.

    And anyone saying the union isn’t negotiating, should come up with one single concession the players have asked for or the league has offered. The whole point of a negotiation is supposed to be give and take. This has been more akin to a mugging than a negotiation.

    • frontenac1 says:

      @myron.Good post Amigo. Starting to look more and more like a setup to bust the union.

      • Thomas Le Fan says:

        As if it’s a “union”. In the union I belong to, the “stars” are only paid a few dollars an hour more than the rest of the players even if their skill level is way above that of others and then only after years. How does one support someone who is paid a thousand dollars an hour more than you when there is absolutely no way that you could ever be promoted to or attain a similar position? Puzzling to me.

        • HammerHab says:

          huh? what are you talking about?

          labor union – an organization of workers who have banded together, often for the purpose of getting better working conditions or pay

          it has nothing to do with the difference in pay from one person to the next

          ———————————–

          It’ll always be Habs Inside/Out to me

          • Thomas Le Fan says:

            Association, not union. Generally speaking millionaires don’t form unions. It has everything to do with money. I’m pointing out why this “union” is a disgrace to the concept.

          • HammerHab says:

            generally speaking millionaires are not employees therefore would have no need for a union.

            ———————————–

            It’ll always be Habs Inside/Out to me

          • Thomas Le Fan says:

            Who’s point are you trying to make? Generally speaking, employees don’t become millionaires. This is all too f’ed up for me to have any sympathy for either side. I generally take a pro-union stance but just can’t in this instance.

          • HammerHab says:

            You’re saying the PA isn’t a union because one guy is paid “a thousand dollars an hour more” than another and because the “union” members are millionaires. Those points, while true, doesn’t make the PA not a union.

            ———————————–

            It’ll always be Habs Inside/Out to me

    • B says:

      Since the last CBA, the increase in players salary (even despite an initial roll back) is greater than the increase in revenues.

      The league wanted and did get a cap that was tied to revenues. The league did not want to give 57% to players, they did not want the changes to free agency that greatly benefited the players and they did not want a cap floor (let alone such a high one). These were all part of the lengthy negotiations that led to the last CBA. The last CBA was a negotiated settlement and not a mandate handed down or forced on the players by the league. Hindsight shows that the last CBA was indeed very good for the players, hardly the ass kicking some try to portray it as.

      • HabinBurlington says:

        If Ted Saskin doesn’t get caught reading emails, he is probably still in charge of Union. He found a way to “win” the negotiation, while at the same time making the owners feel they won. That is a master negotiation.

      • Gerry H says:

        “Since the last CBA, the increase in players salary (even despite an initial roll back) is greater than the increase in revenues.”

        Can you explain how this is possible? The last CBA tied salaries directly to league revenues at a fixed rate of 57%. That was managed through the escrow process. How is it possible for salaries to have grown faster than revenues? It defies simple arithmetic.

        • commandant says:

          The First year of the CBA had salaries at 54%

          If the league hit certain revenue targets (which they hit).

          The players could increase in later years to 55, 56 or 57%.

          Since the league went up in revenues so astronomically, the % jumped 3%.

          However when you consider the astronomical increase in revenues, a 3% increase in player percentage is peanuts.

          Go Habs Go!
          Check out Top Shelf Prospects, my Team by Team prospect reports
          http://lastwordonsports.com/

          • HabinBurlington says:

            So let me get this straight as the leagues revenues astronomically jump the players get 55 then 56 then 57 of these huge revenues, while the owners go from 45 to 44 and 43, yet this is peanuts?

            Ben, i know you are Pro player, but come on. When revenues are astronomical and you are pulling 57 percent of those huge numbers versus 43 how can you call that peanuts?

            For every percent the players gained the owners lost. That is a double effect. You really do want your cake and eat it too!

  46. Propwash says:

    If/when all the dust settles, I wonder how many trades are going to happen out of spite.

    _____________________________
    “Access Forbidden” gettin’ ya down?
    Hold down Shift while clicking refresh.

    • Ron says:

      Also be interesting how many trades happen by teams to bury some PA members who took it upon themselves to publically embarrass some NHL executive.

    • Cal says:

      Get a feeling Versteeg’s going to like it in the IHL? Perhaps, Ian White will join him there.

    • B says:

      When the dust settles, the teams and GMs will still be highly competitive. They will move on and look for loop holes and find ways to circumvent the new CBA in trying to help their teams do better than the other teams. They will not harm their clubs by shipping out good players in some kind of a petty or spiteful settling of scores. Crosby as a high profile player has stood beside Fehr and has parroted some of his very questionable rhetoric, but I don’t see him being shipped out of Pittsburgh for it. Ditto for guys like Gorges and Cole. Most likely they will just put it behind them and move on.

  47. Habfan10912 says:

    Day two of trying to follow “The Twilight Guide to Surviving the Lockout.”

    I got up extra early this morning to hit the gym while the wife slept. When I got home I did the dishes, did some laundry, mopped the floor and cooked lunch.
    Wife, “That was so sweet of you to do all of that this morning”.
    Me, “No problem hon.”
    Wife, “Wanna fool around?”
    Me, Are you nuts! I’m exhausted.”

    Man. I miss hockey

    ———————————–

  48. Habfan10912 says:

    My apologies to Timo for belated congratulations on his successful first.
    Some college prospects.
    Players, Recruits in Draft Rankings | College Hockey, Inc.
    http://m.collegehockeyinc.com/node/502

    ———————————–

  49. Timo says:

    I am still waiting for someone to acknowledge that I was first on this thread and did not mention that I was first. I hope someone acknowledges that.

  50. HabinBurlington says:

    About as good as they can do. I am guessing it is safe to say then that the players did not give 110% this time. Surely a max. effort would result in an offer that is indeed The best they can do.

    Perhaps we need to wait longer before both sides give efforts, sounds like they are still in preseason mode here.

    • Ozmodiar says:

      No… “max effort” or “Take it or leave it” could put an end to talks and kill the season.

      The key word used by Fehr is “about”. It tells me the PA are leaving the door open to a counter offer from the league. If it’s close, a deal will get done.

    • Habfan10912 says:

      Sounds like the make whole thingy is still the big issue.

      ———————————–

  51. Propwash says:

    Sadly for the NHL, it won’t be good enough. I’ve pretty much given up hope that they will come to an agreement.

    _____________________________
    “Access Forbidden” gettin’ ya down?
    Hold down Shift while clicking refresh.

    • Timo says:

      Actually, somewhere deep deep deep inside I hope that they don’t come to an agreement. I think NHL needs a drastic change and losing a season (or maybe even two) may bring about that change. Hopefully a few useless teams will fold and we’ll go back to 24 team league.

      Things will get worse before they get better.

      • Cal says:

        Then, the NHLPA loses 135 members or more and will have learned a valuable lesson. Don’t mess with Timo.

        • frontenac1 says:

          And six deadbeat owners.

          • HabinBurlington says:

            While there are at least 6 owners I would love to beat like a dead horse, in fairness I don’t recall hearing any players not getting their paycheques when hockey is being played. To me a deadbeat owner is one who doesn’t pay his employees.

          • frontenac1 says:

            Wrong term maybe.Ment in terms of habitually needing cash from money making teams. “Livin On Government Cheese” maybe?

          • HabinBurlington says:

            I hear you Frontenac, there are a few owners that could go in the Lachine with Bettman, of course I would then get greedy and want to include Lurch and a few other Bruins players as well.

          • frontenac1 says:

            So true Burly. I am afraid our window of opportunity is closing quickly with coming Lachine freeze up. My ice auger is ready however. Saludos Amigo!

      • frontenac1 says:

        Now yer talkin. 24 teams, no more instigator rule,no touch icing,a cap on beer prices, and for Bettman……you know the rest.

  52. shiram says:

    Reposting since 2 threads went up while I was typing.

    Both the NHL and the NHLPA bear some responsibility for the current lockout, both of them have resorted to “negotiating tactics” that did not help in getting a fast resolve on the issues. Sure one party might be worse or guiltier, but really at this point, pointing fingers does not get me any satisfaction, nor does it help in bringing hockey back any sooner.
    Overall, I guess I feel left out, players and the NHL might be dropping some lines about fans once in a while, but neither of those parties are trying to enrich the experience for the fans, or bring in lower tickets, foods and beverage. So I don’t care about these negotiations, the verbiage of it is boring, the tactics used are annoying, and while fans have the least to lose in these CBA negotiations, I feel the fans are also not going to get anything positive from these talks.
    So screw both parties, I frankly don’t care about what’s going with their negotiations, but I will be back watching diligently once they drop the puck.

  53. Timo says:

    If I had to guess the answer would be a “no”.

    Btw, Halak attack hits Bundesliga.

  54. GrimJim says:

    The Auto-generated Spam account is back!


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