Former Habs goalie coach lands job in Germany

Former Canadiens goalie coach Pierre Groulx has landed a new job with Red Bull Munich in Germany’s elite DEL under head coach Pierre Pagé.

“Pierre asked me to come to Munich with them,” Groulx told The Gazette’s Dave Stubbs from Port Colborne, Ont., while taking a short break during his weeklong, first annual PG’s Goalies netminding camp.

“I told him I’d like to make sure to explore all my options, but he never let off. He really wanted me to go. It came to a point where I realized this might be a good opportunity for me to go overseas and learn the ways of European goaltending.

“At the end of the day, Munich was a very good offer to take care of my family. And professionally, it’s a really good opportunity to expand my horizons in Europe.”

Groulx added that he was baffled by negative comments from another former Habs goalie coach, Rollie Melanson, about Groulx’s work with Carey Price. Melanson was quoted saying: “Carey hasn’t stopped deteriorating since I left.”

Said Groulx: “To be honest, I was floored by (the comments). It probably took me longer to get up from that than from getting fired.”

Sportsnet’s Jeff Simmons wrote an article this week on NHL goalie rankings and had Price rated as “Top of the line”, below “The elite” ranking, which included the New York Rangers’ Henrik Lundqvist, Los Angeles Kings’ Jonathan Quick and Nashville Predators’ Pekka Rinne.

Boston’s Tuukka Rask, Ottawa’s Craig Anderson, Detroit’s Jimmy Howard and San Jose’s Antti Niemi joined Price in the “Top of the line” rating.

(Photo by Allen McInnis/The Gazette)

Groulx heads to Germany, by Dave Stubbs

Groulx still ‘baffled’ by Melanson comments, by Dave Stubbs

NHL goalie rankings, Sportsnet


  1. Maritime Ron says:

    Good Morning from Nashville Tennessee

    It looks like HIO is now quite wide open concerning topics, so here’s throwing out another:
    Sports Venue Food Offerings.

    Well, if you ever felt guilty about downing a hot dog or some fries, all that guilt should disappear once you have a look at ” The Mitchwich” sold at Rangers Ballpark in Arlington

    “…named after Texas Rangers 1B Mitch Moreland… The heaping Mitchwich sandwich contains venison, buffalo meat, grilled onions, copious amounts of cheese, all on sourdough bread and topped with a few delightful slices of bacon.”

    You have to see it to believe it and here’s wondering what the Nutritional Analysis would be?

    • habsfaninboston says:

      That looks pretty good! It’s actually not as bad as it appears. Venison and buffalo meat are very lean. Most of the fat would be from the cheese and the few pieces of bacon.

    • Cal says:

      Sounds less dangerous than KFC’s double down offering. 540 calories in one sitting. (I have a theory that the fast food operators secretly wish to harm their clientele, but I can’t prove anything)

      • Maritime Ron says:

        Hi Cal
        These appear to be the Top 3 American winners:

        1. White Castle – 20 chicken rings, 1,760 calories
        2. Burger King – Ultimate breakfast platter, 1,450 calories
        3. McDonald’s – Big breakfast with syrup and margarine, 1,350 calories

        Then this dandy:
        The Monster Thickburger courtesy of Hardees
        Fat: 93 grams +36 grams of saturated fats
        Calories: 1,300
        Sodium: 2,860 milligrams (1500 should be top max/day)

        • Ian Cobb says:

          You are making me hungry Ron!
          Enjoy your trip!

          • Maritime Ron says:

            Thanks Ian
            A charming city with some wonderful new and older colonial architecture…yet a 30 minute drive outside the city brings back memories of movies shot 60 years ago – not all good, and I’ll leave it at that.
            Opryland Hotel is a gem!
            Not much of a country music fan yet Music Row and all the characters are interesting to say the least.
            Very few Predators stuff being worn as it’s all about the Titans and NCAA around here.

  2. rhino514 says:

    Seems to me the team has quietly acquired a very decent group of B prospects/ fringe players at forward.
    Leblanc, Bournival, Dumont, maybe even Thomas.
    Anyone think any of these kids could surprise and see significant playing time during the coming season? We all know Leblanc´s story, but the other guys aren´t chopped liver either.
    Don´t quite see why White and Moen, at this point, should play every night, so maybe one of the kids gets their feet wet there.
    This is partly why I don´t get the Briere trade; it´s gonna cost four million; but I feel we had options, along with Kristo, one of whom could have done well if given playing time; there was enough talent there to take a chance on one of the kids, whoever performed well at camp or at Hamilton early on. Briere at this point is himself a huge question mark.
    I feel we could have used the 4 million (or 8 million for 2 years) to better purpose.
    The only obvious reason I see for Briere is on the PP; for some reason the organization doesn´t have confidence in Gallagher or Gionta on the wing on the PP.
    Since 40% of goals are scored on the PP, i think the team wants to guarantee themselves a top 5 position there; they know they have Markov, and Subbie for the foundation of a strong PP. A top 5, along with a middle of the pack or above PK, would virtually guarantee the team a playoff spot.
    Still, I don´t see the logic of the Briere move 5 on 5, and certainly not the season after next.

  3. Steven says:

    Upon looking at the Capgeek page of Free Agents (, I’m actually shocked at some of the names still up there.

    Bryz, despite his poor play, surprises me mightily to still be there. Teams still need tenders(hello, Calgary), so I’m shocked that he’s still there and likely not to go anywhere. Ditto to Thomas, but I’m thinking he’s more likely to get tryouts sent his way. No way anyone could feel confident in his physical condition.

    Some other names that really stick out to me: Morrow, Ryan Whitney, Gagne, Lydman, Raymond and Mueller. A lot of good players there that are still sitting around. Morrow might just be mulling over his offers, if the long-dormant rumours of our interest are to be believed, but not much on the rest. Mueller and Gagne are injury prone, Whitney had a weird season this year, and I haven’t heard a thing about Lydman since his days in Buffalo, but I’m still surprised no team has gone there.

    EDIT: I tried doing that cool link with a title thing but messed up.

    • HabFab says:

      Believe some issues are teams waiting to have all their RFA’s under contract and then seeing what money is left.
      Morrow was not so much the Habs interested, as his agent approached us. He broke his kneecap during the play-offs so teams will be in no hurry.
      Lydman has apparently declined two offers of $2.5 per for two years and is thought to be looking at retirement.

    • Cal says:

      Every year a few players everyone expects to get a NHL contracts don’t. Teams pass for many reasons, but usually it’s a “no bang for the buck” situation.

    • mksness says:

      Bryz, didn’t really play badly last year. he was one of the bright spots for philly during the start of the year.

      Thomas, is 40 and 1 year removed from the game. so like you mentioned pretty sure teams don’t want to bite unless he tries out first.

      I think Bryz will sign somewhere in the NHL but if he wants anything over 2 years and 3M per year i don’t think he’ll find a taker

  4. Hockey Bob says:

    What the heck do you people find to talk about here, this team has done jack all summer? Oh on a quick scan through I see talks about other teams and other sports and old hab players you have to be old to have seen played. As it is now this team is in for a top ten draft pick, but what do I know I don’t have a blog, hell I don’t even tweet.

  5. sweetmad says:

    Canadian errant
    I would love to go to the game in Vancouver,but it all depends on the finances,it would be like a dream come true for me,coming so late to the game and living in Vancouver,didn’t think I would ever get to see a game, Mike my other half has seen a couple of game in Montreal,thats where he’s from and how I became a HABS fan.
    Mike was always working when the games were on,so he would call me during the game for the score,so I had to watch them,we have always had RDS so we can watch the games.
    Anyway when you know how much they will cost let me know.

  6. aHabGrowsInBrooklyn says:

    Smart Dog, you are comedy gold this early Saturday morning!

  7. SmartDog says:

    Re. Darche and Moen on the power play.
    I think most coaches have their little projects they’re going to use to prove they can turn coal into diamonds and get hidden value out of some guys. What’s sad is when it’s so obvious to EVERY fan this is a bad idea but the coach gets locked in. Then it’s a vanity play – no amount of feedback will stop the coach from pursuing the unreachable. Like Napoleon and Russia, or Rommel and.. I dunno, sumpthin, or Tiger Woods and every ho’d up society girl he sees.

    Think I fell asleep for a minute there.

    Listen to the Smart Dog. He knows his poop!

    • B says:

      Moen’s average PP TOI as a Hab:
      12/13 9 seconds/game 20th on the team
      11/12 8 seconds/game 24th on the team
      10/11 3 seconds/game 25th on the team
      09/10 6 seconds/game 23rd on the team

      –Go Habs Go!–

  8. Hobie Hansen says:

    The captain, after Papa Smurf Gionta is cut loose, in order should be, Prust, Parros, Moen, Tinordi or White. Ok, maybe Subban, Gorges or Emelin. You have to at least be able to drop the gloves and bounce your fist up off the ice into someone’s jaw to wear the “C”. IMO.

    According to myself, Front and my buddy HH.

    Goodnight Amigos! Stay thirsty!

    This post is dedicated to Front and HH.

    And a special shoutout to that mangy mutt… SmartDog!

  9. jimmy shaker says:

    12 sets of back to backs this year……Is every team like that or what?

    Shaker out!

  10. habstrinifan says:

    @Phil C ..

    I am not avoiding your question, Who would you sit to play Prust?

    It is why I think the question is an important consideration for MT.
    Based on what he brought to the ice last season and his play in New York, Prust has shown himself as a very competent hockey player with versatility and skill combined with a combative style and an ability to improve the effectiveness of ‘better’ players whom he plays alongside.

    If you put as your top 9 forwards your top 9 ‘skilled’ players, then Prust may not be included. But then do you have a ‘balanced’ team.
    In my opinion you do not.

    I may be placing too much weight on his 2012-2013 performance, but I believe that the right line combinations have to be found that would make Prust a regular on the #3 line.

    That is one of the reasons why I said in many posts that one of the things MB had to do was ‘cull’ the herd. So that as diverse and balanced a lineup as possible can been iced.

    • Bill says:

      Well, I agree that Prust is more valuable in a 12-minute, third-line role than in an 8-minute, fourth-line role.

      But there’s no need to cull the herd.

      Someone in the top nine will be injured in fairly short order, and presto, Prust is on the third-line.

      Full Breezer 4 Life

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      I almost think it’s not fair to relegate Brandon to fourth line duty considering the season he had last year, but as you’re putting it no one ‘above’ him on the depth chart deserves to sit. So he gets penciled in on the fourth line, but since the NHL meatgrinder never disappoints, someone will get injured in short order, and he’ll be elevated. Either that or someone will try Michel Therrien’s patience and he’ll decide that il a pas l’temps de niaiser and sit someone for a couple of games.

      I’m more confident that we have the depth in Hamilton to deal with short-term injuries too, Gabriel Dumont and Mike Blunden can serve on the fourth line, and Michaël Bournival and Louis Leblanc can spot in for a couple of weeks on the Top 9.

      Nice to have that depth.

      • Habitant in Surrey says:


        …Normand, are the sale of tickets for Habs vs Canucks @ Rogers Arena on sale yet ?

        • Un Canadien errant says:

          Don’t think so. This is the home site.

          There is no option to buy at this time. If you get to it before I do, buy me a ticket too.

          Any other Vancouver Hab fans out there want to have our own West Coast mini-Summit? Every time I bring it up, it’s crickets.

          There’s talk that this season there will be more availability, Canucks fan are a little sour and jaded, so tickets won’t be impossible to come by, but Montréal and Toronto tickets are always going to be tough.

      • Bill says:

        Yeah, we’re looking at Parros and Dumont as the spare forwards.

        Pleks, Gionta, Bourque, Desharnais, Pacioretty, Briere, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, and Eller are the top nine.

        Prust, White, and Moen are the bottom three. Prust moves up in case of injury.

        What I still can’t figure out is whose place Parros takes when Therrien wants him in the line-up. White’s?

        Full Breezer 4 Life

  11. frontenac1 says:

    Gorges should be the next captain.. Prust is still the Heartbeat on the ice. Different roles.

    • SmartDog says:

      But Gorges seemed so… lame last year.

      Listen to the Smart Dog. He knows his poop!

      • Bill says:

        I just want Gorges to stop falling on top of Price. It’s a fact that 40% of goals against Price happen when Gorges topples over on him. Okay, well maybe not a fact, but it does happen a lot.

        If he stops doing that, I’d give him the C and a box of cookies.

        EDIT: And I’m not sure if I’ll be making the summit. If I do it’ll be on my own through my own ticket connection, because I wasn’t organized enough to meet the deadline here this year. But If I make it I’ll see all you guys at Hurley’s. I’ll be the guy in the Kirk Muller t-shirt, haha.

        Full Breezer 4 Life

        • SmartDog says:

          That’s the thing about Gorges last year. He seemed to be in the wrong place move frantically too often. Whether in Price’s lap or just out of position, it wasn’t pretty.

          Listen to the Smart Dog. He knows his poop!

          • Bill says:

            That was Gorges the year before as well, IMO. Actually every year. He’s heart and soul, not skill and brains.

            Full Breezer 4 Life

  12. HardHabits says:

    This summer has been more fun than an NHL lock-out.

  13. JTT says:

    wait til training camp to see if there are any surprises. I think we have a good enough team to fight for a playoff spot. are we gonna make it. no idea. where we are sitting after Christmas should pretty much tell the tell.

    • Dunboyne Mike says:

      We’re making it.
      I ticked 2nd or 3rd in the poll.
      When we play our A game we can beat anyone in the division, possible exception of Wings.

        • Dunboyne Mike says:

          Ha! Good morning JTT.
          And thanks for recognising the limb I have elected to put myself out on! I still stand by it, but HH’s observation below is also fair comment. Still, your original post was about making, rather than advancing in, the playoffs.
          I’m not entirely alone on my limb — a quarter of poll-respondents feel the same.
          Meantime you and I should put a virtual pint on it and check back in April.

      • HardHabits says:

        My concern with this team is not how well they can play in the regular season or against any team in a one off. It’s come play-off time… I am nowhere near confident that they can beat anyone in a 7 game series and that’s what matters.

  14. frontenac1 says:

    Prust is the Heartbeat of the Habs. Love the guy.

    • Arnou Ruelle says:

      If that’s the case, then why not make him a Captain then. Long have been that some fans are discontented with Gorges and not approving of taking the “C”

      BTW, how many of you guys think Briere will become a centre this upcoming season? I’m feeling he’ll end up getting it, if DD doesn’t f*** up that position!

      • Dunboyne Mike says:

        Prust is a leader — but how good is it to have a 4th-liner as captain?
        I also think Gorges would be deserving of the C and would make a worthy captain.
        But what I’m hoping is that PK is the next captain. Bone fide superstar, ravenously hungry for a Cup, has (apparently) always dreamed of being a Hab.
        I see Cups and new pennants in the Bell, and — way down the road — the next number the Habs retire.

    • Sportfan says:

      could not agree more proud to wear the CH and we are proud to cheer him!

      Sports and Entertainment in the link click and enjoy, clicking is fun!

  15. frontenac1 says:

    @dunboyne. Love to do that one day amigo, Saludos!

  16. punkster says:

    Or his work with a master:

    ***SUBBANGIN’ NOW BABY!!!***

  17. frontenac1 says:

    @dunboyne. Her dad”s family came from county Armagh. My great grandfather was asked to leave Belfast.

    • Dunboyne Mike says:

      So now THERE’s a conversation BEGGING to happen! When some day you get here, I will have to hear about your great-grandfather — I will buy every pint til its told! Sláinte Front!

  18. punkster says:

    Al Di Meola…one of the best:

    ***SUBBANGIN’ NOW BABY!!!***

  19. frontenac1 says:

    @dunboyne. Remi, Courvoisier, its all good for me amigo.

    • Dunboyne Mike says:

      True, true. But you need to keep Hennessy on that list (but as with all of them, avoid the entry level stuff and go one step up (or higher, depending on the depth of your pockets) to VSOP.

      Hope to pour you one (at least) some day.

      You never told me which part of the country your wife’s from?…

  20. frontenac1 says:

    Hola Dunboyne! Que passe amigo? I still want to see Parros beat the piss out of Youppi.

    • Dunboyne Mike says:

      Oh man, Front, I am so down on Parros after reading Ed’s posts the other day!

      Could he even take Youppi? Could he take Kermit the Frog?

  21. Arnou Ruelle says:

    Its quite here at HIO and we’ve seen only little action on what’s going with the NHL. Being a sports buff myself, I’ve been more keen on what’s happening with the Als and a potential bid for this city to have the Expos back. The Impact seem a decent team but not that great. However, they’ll be ok in MLS from the look of things.

    Now, let me turn the attention to Hockey:

    I was looking at TSN website and the gave some interesting UFA’s still available on the free agent market.

    There are 2 players that I find might be able to boost up the depth in the current Habs lineup: Damien Brunner (5’11, LW) and Brad Boyes (6’1, RW).

    If Bergevin can make some cap space to free either Gio or DD on the fly, they could get either one of these two players. Or, if Boyes is not available, maybe the could offer Brunner a $2.5M/yr. for like 2 yrs. to play in MTL.

    Since there are a few moves going on, now is the time I think to get these players. Its about a month more till training camp starts and I think whatever mgmt. could do to boost up the lineup, they should be doing it at right now.

    • Habfan17 says:

      Since the Habs are weakest on the left side, Brunner may be worthwhile. The right side is pretty stacked with Briere, Gionta, Gallagher, and Parros, maybe white. Then there is LeBlanc who may be ready soon.


      • Arnou Ruelle says:

        I’m seeing Gionta will not be back here next yr. After his contract expires or if need be, trade him at the deadline, I wouldn’t be surprised if he ends up back in NJ playing with his brother, Stephen.

        If Bergevin is preparing this team long term though, McCarron is probably our best bet to boost up the offense in a year or so. If not, I would gladly see our GM go into free agency and test the market.

    • Phil C says:

      Boyes is not an upgrade on Gionta, IMO.

  22. frontenac1 says:

    Never eat tenderized meat amigos! Do it yourself if you must but do not buy it that way. Buy only the best cuts of AAA western beef. Cook it rare,drink a nice dry red wine and finish with a Cognac and nice Cohiba. You will live a long and satisfying life.

    • Dunboyne Mike says:

      Favourite cognac, Front?
      (Careful how you answer! Not only I but perhaps also your Irish wife may be paying attention!)

    • SmartDog says:

      Tenderizing meat yourself is one of the joys of life – or at least, eating the beautifully flavoured morsels afterwards.

      But yes, you must do it yourself. Buying tenderized meat is like picking up a street hooker. You don’t know what you’re gonna get and you’ll probably regret it later.

      Er, not that I have any experience.

      Listen to the Smart Dog. He knows his poop!

  23. Dunboyne Mike says:

    Hobie H MUST win post-of-the-day for the google-translate version of the Bournival article!
    Crying with laughter here!

  24. Dunboyne Mike says:

    To what extent is this blog representative of hockey fans generally?

    The reason I ask is because I reckon it would be interesting to get an idea of what proportion of posters place any kind of positive value on certain applications of the dangerous hit, notably involving the head, and what proportion want the league to outlaw them.

    Alas, we are probably not a typical sub-set of hockey fandom, and so the sample mightn’t be worth much.

    Recognising this, however, won’t inhibit me from expanding on my point below. Supposing the vast majority posting here favoured the elimination of hits involving the head (and it’s not impossible that they do), AND supposing that similar proportions were recorded amongst fan groups across North America. We would be left saying, if hockey fans hate head-shots, why doesn’t the NHL?

    The answer, imo, is that for hockey fans the priority is hockey. For the NHL its profit. We have to dislodge the notion that NHL personnel are simply suited, wealthy, hockey-loving, closer-to-the-action privileged versions of ourselves. They aren’t. We love hockey, they love profit.

    Capn Crunch (mentioned the other day, with video of a vintage commercial posted by Ed): we love our children; the makers of Capn Crunch love the money they make by suckering parents into buying nutritionally worthless, fat- and sugar-saturated cereals for their children.

    (Yeah I know, it’s already Saturday in Ireland, but it’s still rant Friday in Canada)

    • Phil C says:

      I would think anyone who posts here in August would qualify as a rabid fan, the kind that the NHL would want to suck up to. But those against violence in hockey are often a vocal minority. Every poll I have seen of real hockey fans has supported fighting in hockey. Those who like it probably have trouble defending it so opt not to post.

      That being said, as the research on brain trauma keeps coming and both fans and players become more informed, attitudes may be changing. I never thought big hits were a problem unless you were knocked out, which doesn’t happen too often so I didn’t have a problem with it. Now we know you can do serious brain damage without getting knocked out. This is why I would never let a kid play contact hockey, even though I love the game.

      • Dunboyne Mike says:

        [Phil! I wrote you a huge, long-winded reply, clicked ‘Submit’ and it vanished. A work of art! (Not!). I know UCE has complained of that a few times, but I had just assumed it was to do with living in Vancouver or not realising that it was one of the mods’ peanut-butter sandwich he stole all those years ago in Grade 3).

        Anyway I can’t re-write it because it was beer-aided. However I remember it began with saying that I read more than I wrote today and had enjoyed and agreed with all your posts on this topic]

  25. Habfan17 says:

    I have enjoyed exchanging posts with many of you on this site.
    I have even enjoyed some rather heated exchanges with Loonie!

    I have read some very insightful posts and some extreme posts and that is what makes the site fun.

    However, there are a couple of people on this site that have a rather high opinion of themselves and ruin what I thought was the whole idea of this site. Share opinions and our passion for hockey and the Habs.

    These folks take it upon themselves to ” put others” in their place, including me! Since I doubt that these same people are employed in professional hockey, I would say that like me, their opinions come from what we have available through the media.

    I have also found them to make posts making some of the same proposals as I did a day earlier so forgive me if I find it hard to take their dismissing attitudes!

    All this to say, that I will stop by to read what some of you have to write as I enjoy it, but that is all! Some people have a flair for putting words to paper. It does not make them smarter or better than anyone else.

    I have never understood people who have this need to get up on their high horse and look down with condescending eyes on others and to point out when, in their opinion, they are wrong!

    • Dunboyne Mike says:

      Not sure exactly what you mean, 17, and I hope I’m not among the offenders (although no one better to mount the high horse!).

      But if you’re thinking of reducing your involvement here, all you’re doing is reducing the space occupied by a good poster like yourself and leaving it available for the ones to whom you object!

      Which would not be good for the site.

      • Habfan17 says:

        Hey DM, no, you are one of the ones I enjoy exchanging posts with.
        I will probably just take a break.

        Thank you, you are the voice of reason!

        Right now, I am very annoyed with a couple of regulars.I will get over it.


        • Dunboyne Mike says:

          Well I guess if we can annoy each other in the pub or at the water-cooler, I guess it’s only natural — and kind of interesting — that we can also do it in a virtual chatroom. Just don’t stay away too long! Think of all the book recommendations you’ll miss, stories from posters who watched Richard and Howe live, arguments about treason vs conscience (re. Edward Snowden), stats comparing left-handed d-men from the Habs and Kansas City SCOUTS*, and all other manner of priceless information!

          [edit: geez, I hope no one noticed that. Can NOT believe that boo-boo. Four days, two threads later, did I get away with it?…]

          • Habfan17 says:

            LOL, I have stayed away from some of those “controversial” conversations. I have stayed away from the book recommendations since I tend to read a lot of non-fiction. I do enjoy Jeffrey Deaver when I get into fiction. I don;t want to put people to sleep…lol

            I am not sure of you like James Bond. If you do, and in case you din;t know. Jeffrey Deaver has Written Carte Blanche, the next Bond novel. I am just starting it now.

            I also have a very large hockey library!


          • Dunboyne Mike says:

            Does your hockey collection include Dick Irvin’s books? I mentioned him once or twice on our big book thread the other day and no one bit.

            Or maybe that’s like expecting Baptists to state that, yes, the four gospels are included in their favourite reading material!

    • Habitant in Surrey says:

      …Steve …ignore and not take personally those whom may dismiss Your thoughts …to do otherwise only lowers Yourself to Their level

      …no matter Your opinion, whether insightful, naive or plain wrong, there are ‘silent’ readers that may not respond or acknowledge what You wrote, but They are reading Your opinions (maybe not many, but ‘some’ 🙂 )

      …I really hate having to read 2 or more members dissing each other and squabbling like little girls in a prolonged manner, because it is quite boring to the majority of Us, except those whose egos that MUST have the last word

      …You will not have everyOne agreeing with You …but it’s not necessary and a waste of time to respond to everyOne that sees the World differently than You

      …use My philosophy dealing with People here that don’t agree with Me …it’s called the ‘screw ’em philosophy’ 🙂

      • Habfan17 says:

        Hey H I S!

        I usually subscribe to your philosophy. Every once in a while it just really gets me P***ED.

        I think it is more fun when people do present a different point of vue or opinion. When they do it and not make it derogatory or personal.

        You make a good point, There are a good number of folks with I share posts and opinions withand it is great. You are right too that other may read and not respond.

        What irks me is those who post as if what they have written is gospel and then completely dismiss others.

        I will rethink my position, thanks!


    • The Dude says:

      Thumbs up Habfan17 …used to have to put up with the same from a young Kenny Dryden interview,lol

    • D Man says:

      I know this post is too late to be read, but here are some dismissive closings. “You can put that in the bank” “Nuff said” “Clearly” “Get used to it”

      You can’t be both a Habs and a Leafs fan

  26. Habitant in Surrey says:

    …WOW !!! …middle east polemics and multiculturalism debates in HIO …dang, I go away for a day and Frank (HabFab) and others let it all hang out !

    …better I not jump-in because I will turn this place inside-out …literally ! 🙂

    …yet, …sooo tempting

    • Phil C says:

      You seem to be on the verge of a Sam Kinison moment.

      • Habitant in Surrey says:


        …maybe 🙂

      • Dunboyne Mike says:

        Ha great clip!
        Had always avoided that movie, maybe I was wrong.
        (At the same time, my first day of teacher training, the psychology lecturer did something similar to a girl in the front row of a class of over 100. Complete bastard (and he didn’t have PTSD as an excuse either).

    • Dunboyne Mike says:

      Keep your powder dry, HiS!
      I was going to introduce a (non-hockey) topic today which always divides people. And I was already wondering about your perspective as a vet (and I know Sholi is too busy going hot-dog for hot-dog with 10912 at the Mets game). However, today’s thread was already so lively and rich that I held off. Maybe tomorrow if discussion reverts to DD on the PP or Youppi. (Topic needs to be introduced no later than Aug 6…)

      • Habitant in Surrey says:

        …so many debates to fix this screwed-up World …so little time Mike 🙂

        • Dunboyne Mike says:

          And isn’t it rich that those debates end up happening here on a hockey blog?!

          (I notice my hint didn’t provoke a guess from you…)

          • Habitant in Surrey says:

            …I don’t think being a vet necessarily defines one, but would be interested to know what You have in mind

          • Dunboyne Mike says:

            Agree, and forgive me. None of us likes being pigeon-holed. Rephrase: it’s an historical issue, still provokes debate at this time of year, and someone with military insight and experience brings something different and relevant to the discussion.

  27. JTT says:

    Don’t have a problem with a good clean body check that’s what the game is all about. Take the man of the puck. The rest has to go so we can watch some skilled hockey with speed and finesse.

    Just think if crosby was allowed to play his game and only expect a good clean body check when it presents it’s self instead of waiting for that one dirty hit that’s gonna end his career.

    If allowed we would see one of the best in action.

  28. habstrinifan says:

    I like this question from B.
    I think it is an emminently important consideration. Remembering what a ‘healthy Prust’ brings and brought last year.

    Care to answer. Not 1st and 2nd line.. but 3rd line regular spot.

    When everyone is healthy, does anyone see Prust playing on one of the top 3 TOI lines.

    • JTT says:

      Trini prust is a border line 3rd liner but that doesn’t mean if given the chance he couldn’t get the job done. I think he would fit in nicely with the two Gally’s for a 3rd line.

      • Un Canadien errant says:

        I really liked that line, and I wouldn’t mind seeing it again, especially if injuries strike and a fourth liner has to move up the lineup. They had a certain chemistry together, complemented each other really well.

        Thing is, Brandon can skate, so he’s not embarrassing himself out there. He can play it straight up, work the corners, get in front of the net, occupy the defencemen.

    • Phil C says:

      I don’t mind Prust on the fourth line because Therrien tends to roll four lines at even strength, so he should still see some good ice time. Secondary scoring from the fourth line could really separate a team from the pack in the salary cap era.

      If the game requires an on-ice body guard, Prust can easily be moved up in the line up game to game.

      • habstrinifan says:

        At Phil and JTT.. I reposted B’s question because I thought it would draw much more opinions. If I were making an effective Habs lineup, I would find it difficult to not give Prust an important 3rd line role. The type of ‘push-back,tempo-setting, roll-up-our-sleeves-get to work, ‘lets weather the storm’, role of a good 3rd liner.

        I guess Prust isnt as important as last year’s MVP poll made him out to be.

  29. Habfan17 says:

    @ UCE

    With all due respect, I disagree with your assesment of my trade propossals. No offence but any enlightened hockey fan knows, where a player is drafted does not always match their potential.

    It is my opinion that Ottawa overpaid for Ryan and will live to regret giving up so much. I would rather have a first, 2nd and 3rd round player than one first line player, which is what MB has been preaching since he took office.

    You and many other posters have on numerous occassions, mentioned how other GM’s have over payed for, and over valued players.

    Now you, at this point in time, over value a player who has 40 points with 205 games under his belt. he may never get better. He may never be more than a solid 3rd line player. You have your opinion and I have mine.

    I agree, Holland may be a low pick, but he is highly thought of with strong leadership and hockey sense. I would agree they may want a 4th round pick as well, but Moen for Gaustad is not bad at all. In the past I propossed sending Plekanec, Gorges, when he was playing well, and a prospect for Ryan and people said it was not enough. Now they say Pleks is worth more, the Habs can’t play well without him.

    Thank you for your gentle chidding, please excuse me for not agreeing with you..


    • neumann103 says:

      I also think Ottawa overpaid for Ryan both because I think some overrate him and because of the specific players they gave up.

      There are a number of 1st line players for whom I would give up draft picks, but not Ryan and not those guys.

      I recall a number of “trade for Ryan” threads and many involved Plekanec. I was not among those who ridiculed. he inclusions in those trades but I did express that I thougjt giving up Plekanec plus anything for Ryan was insane. I didn’t really think those were possibilities as Anaheim would be motivated to shed salary and pick up high end prospects on cheap early career deals, not $8.9M on a couple of veterans.

      “Et le but!”

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      17, I was an idiot for saying what I did this afternoon, I don’t know what got into me. We can disagree on certain matters, you’re completely right that they’re matters of opinion, and I overstepped my bounds. Please accept my apology.

      • Dunboyne Mike says:

        (With every visit here I grow more and more impatient to convert these virtual connections into “real” ones. Maybe Summit 2014…. Cheers)

  30. JUST ME says:

    Up until we were made aware of damages to the after hockey life for the goons we all agreed that a good clean hit had it`s place in a game of hockey.
    Problem is now that we are confused cause the rules are not applied as they should be for unknown reasons.
    I maintain that everything will fall back in place once the pads,elbows,knees and shoulders are brought back to materials not made of krypton , to serve the purpose to protect one self not to destroy the enemy.

    • Phil C says:

      As I mentioned below, the equipment will help but not solve the problem. Scott Stevens was probably the most dangerous “clean” hitter in the history of the game and his shoulder pads were not hard plastic, they were the thin and flimsy with just a small plastic cap.

    • Dunboyne Mike says:

      “the rules are not applied as they should be for unknown reasons.”

      They are not unknown. The NHL is not a sports organisation it is an entertainment business — like The X-Facor or WWF — whose primary objective is profit. The NHL is Hockey Inc., and Hockey Inc. believes that not applying rules creates situations — notably violent hits, serious injuries, and both short-term and long-term revenge scenarios — which increase viewership, media coverage, and therefore revenue.

      The NHL is despicable.

  31. habstrinifan says:

    Vegetarians beware.. allegedly unsafe packaged mixed-salad traced to Olive gardens and Red Lobster..originally from Mexico.

    Meat eaters dont escape.. National Beef Packing Co. recalls ground beef nationwide(usa).

    • Phil C says:

      Good show on the news about how mechanically tenderized meat is a serious e-coli risk if not well done. E-coli normally just lives on the surface unless a machine bashes it into the meat. If you like your meat rare, get it untenderized.

  32. frontenac1 says:

    @uce. OB and PB! Stayed with a buddy on Kendal Ave in 1980. Another buddy lived in Chula Vista. Went to a Chargers game at Jack Murphy and that was when they became my Team. Saludos!

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      For me, it was watching Chargers games on TV in November and December, seeing everyone in shirtsleeves and beautiful girls, in the sunshine when it was already dark in Montréal, it seemed like a magical land, I just had to go. So being a fan of Dan Fouts and Kellen Winslow and Chuck Muncie and J.J. Jefferson is what brought me out there.

      My first games at Jack Murphy was when Billy Joe Tolliver was the QB, so not great years in terms of wins, but they had Leslie O’Neal on defence, and that new rookie linebacker Junior Seau, he looked like he was going places, so that was something.

  33. Ed says:

    something to consider when we look at unnecessary roughness in hockey – the stuff that often leads to injuries.

    let’s consider the Stanley Cup Champs – Chicago

    penalty minutes per game: #1 LEAST; 9.2 minutes per game
    major penalties regular season: 2nd LEAST; 16. (Detroit was 1st with 15 majors)

    Chicago seems to have the right formula for success.

  34. sweetmad says:

    I have made it clear in the past that I hate fighting,and really if the game was played as it should be,then there would be no need to hit,but if the hits are clean and never to the head I would be alright with that,but it is hard to know what the other player is going to do,and sometimes there are accidental hits to the head,so that is not alright.

    I love the game but at times it frightens me,especially when I see players being carried off on stretchers,they do this to entertain you and me, they must be mad.

    I would do dangerous things to entertain myself but never to entertain others.


  35. frontenac1 says:

    @uce. San Diego? Do you remember Tug”s Tavern on Mission at the seawall?

  36. HabFab says:

    Niagara IceDogs goalie Christopher Festarini has accepted an invitation to attend the #Habs’ upcoming rookie camp in September.

  37. bwoar says:

    Lots of good points here today guys; sorry to open up on the political stuff, but thanks for a good discussion. Wish I had time to continue but I gotta bounce. It’s a long weekend here… everyone enjoy yourselves and thanks again!


  38. Phil C says:

    @Bill. Can you expand on why hockey needs hard hitting? Women play hockey with no hitting at all and it looks a lot like men’s hockey. Surely men’s hockey could find something between no hitting and the status quo.

    It’s not the spectacular injuries that concern me, it’s the cumulative brain trauma caused by multiple mild concussions from playing a game that is too violent. Kids looking to have fun end up with a permanent brain injury that manifests itself as depression or worse in adulthood.

    Is the big north-south hit really neccessary? Why not just take the puck? I think you could still have a lot of physical play in hockey without the hits that cause concussions.

    • Hab33 says:

      Don’t say those things Phil they make sense and you won’t get many that will agree.

      • punkster says:

        Actually he will get very many who agree.

        I, too, like the physical aspect of the game, the clean hits, and even the occasional emotionally charged fights (those that are not staged).

        I do not like the horrendous head injuries.

        Find a way to truly minimize head injuries, and their often debilitating results, through rule changes, equipment improvements and consistent officiating.

        It’s not rocket surgery.

        ***SUBBANGIN’ NOW BABY!!!***

    • Hobie Hansen says:

      I actually enjoy the fighting and hitting aspect of hockey. However, I do feel guilty about it. It was fine and dandy growing up as a kid in the 80s and 90s when there were less studies done about brain injuries.

      I do actually really enjoy watching women’s hockey, at the top level. When the US plays Canada in the Olympics it’s fantastic.

      In saying that, all the guys in the NHL, well 90% of them, are 35 and under. Now that I’m in my later 30s, I think differently, but these guys love hitting and hitting to hurt. So did I when I was their age.

      If there’s fighting and massive open ice hits allowed in the NHL, which there probably will be for many more years to come, a team better be good at it. The bigger and tougher you are in the NHL the better, period. So the Habs better keep working towards that.

      One major thing that has to change is the equipment. Half of these huge hits resulting in concussions are because of the damn shoulder and elbow pads. I think the equipment itself causes more injures than a punch to the face or a shoulder to the jaw.

      So when people get upset about head injuries, equipment is the number one thing by far they should target first. Try removing the rock hard plastic before changing the rules, IMO.

      • Ed says:

        Hobie, how many players of the 700 in the NHL hit hard and hit to hurt??

        There are no more than 5 or 6 on each team who play like that, and how many actually fight on a regular basis?

        Maybe 3 or 4 on each team will fight regularly, on average. Some teams have 5 or 6 some have 1 or 2.

        These are very rarely the scorers or the skilled players, that we all know.

        So the teams lineup, 18 on 18. There are about 13 skaters on each side, who could care less about “hitting to hurt”, and about 85% on each side who are not going to fight.

        Of course my numbers could be off by 1 or 2 players here and there, but my point is the same:

        The injuries are being inflicted by the non-skilled minority of players; and the skilled players are suffering because of it.

        Finally, there are the fans. Yes, there are fans who love fighting. I agree that there are those.

        But fans don’t like seeing their favorite players – like Eller – eliminated from the playoffs by a goon who can barely play the game, do they?

        Hockey is a fantastic game during the Olympics? Why is that?

        Sure the talent on the ice is outstanding – that’s the obvious answer.

        But the more subtle answer is, international tournaments never have goons playing. The skilled players can skate and play the game the way it was meant to be played.

        Is there a place for hard hitting in hockey? Of course.

        Every team should be showed 100 hours of Bob Gainey tape when he was a player.

        The man simply played the game the way this game was meant to be played. He hit, but he never hit the head. He hit hard but he never intended to injure. He finished his checks with his shoulders and kept his stick low.

        There is a way to play physical hockey, and Gainey was one of the best, if not the best, at that clean, physical game.

        What happened to the Gainey’s in the game? Would a Bob Gainey even make the NHL today, if he was not prepared to fight or not prepared to injure other players??

        • Hobie Hansen says:

          Ed, I respect your opinion.

          A little issue with your statement. The number one player one the Habs, PK Subban. He is trying to knock the living daylights out of anybody he lines up.

          And you’re kidding yourself if you don’t think every NHL coach is pulling guys aside during the playoffs and instructing his players to try and hurt and knock players out of the series.

          The entire Sens locker room was high-fiving Gryba when he injured Eller. Just like the entire Habs team was congratulating Subban for destroying Marchand a couple years back.

          • Ed says:

            Of course there are exceptions. I agree. But Subban should tone down those hits and make sure they stay low. Also sometimes he lifts off the ice to make those hits and that lifts him to the head area, which is not necessary.

            Hit a player cleanly, to remove the player from the puck.

          • Ed says:

            if every coach is instructing his players to try and hurt and knock players out of the series, then, like in the NFL, those coaches should be investigated and suspended.

            you’re right.

            many of the coaches have forgotten how to coach as well.

        • Phil C says:

          Very interesting way of looking at it: that rules cater to the minority. Only strengthens the argument for a less violent game.

          The Gryba hit is a great example. He could have played the puck easily, he could have contacted Eller on his front shoulder to knock him off the puck. Instead Gryba moved to avoid the front shoulder and hit in the centre of the body for the big hit, but instead caught him on the chin. If that hit is illegal to even try, Eller doesn’t suffer a life altering injury.

      • Phil C says:

        Yeah, young guys think they are invincible. But your body is keeping count and the bill comes in when you are older.

        Agree on the equipment, it would help, although you could easily concuss someone still under the current rules. Scott Stevens shoulder pads were flimsy and thin, old school style.

    • habstrinifan says:

      Women hockey has hitting.. not supposed to but does.

      • Phil C says:

        I think they allow incidental contact as long as you are playing the puck. Gets tough to call along the boards if you are defending your body position, which is also permitted. Looks a lot like hitting sometimes for sure.

  39. B says:

    When everyone is healthy, does anyone see Prust playing on one of the top 3 TOI lines (which means bumping one of Briere, Bourque, Desharnais, Eller, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Gionta, Pacioretty or Plekanec)? That could make for a couple of expensive 4th liners with Prust ($2.5M) and Moen ($1.85M), although I doubt that all will be healthy very often.

    –Go Habs Go!–

    • HabFab says:

      Nope, not unless one of them is not producing at all.

      • B says:

        I could see Prust getting juggled into the mix on occasion when things need a temporary spark or shake up. Prust can bring some energy and toughness when or as needed and can also chip in some offense too.

        –Go Habs Go!–

    • Hobie Hansen says:

      We could have a very good 4th line if Moen were to get back to the way he’s played in the past. He and Prust are solid players.

    • neumann103 says:

      I firmly believe thst the intent was to play Prust on the 3rd line and that this was part of the message that Therrien delivered in person at Prust’s home on July 1. That -plus more money and term than anyone else offered – was instrumental in retaining his services.
      Both Gallys making the team probably messed up those plans, until injuries meant he joined them.

      “Et le but!”

  40. Bill says:

    @BWoar: lots of interesting posts today, keep it up!

  41. Bill says:

    &Timo: lol, Darche on the power play. Wow that was bad. JM, what the hell?

  42. Bill says:

    @shiram: surely we don’t want to go back to the days of Moen on the power play.

    • Timo says:

      Moen was nothing… Try Matthew Darche on the power play.

      • HabFab says:

        Just noticed that Megan Fox is pregnant. Do you want to explain yourself young man?

      • B says:

        Darche was actually reasonably effective in his limited PP role in 10/11 (on a PP that ranked 7th overall). He had 7 points in just under 80 PP minutes (ranked 11th on the team in both). That same season Erik Cole had 8 points in 221:36 PP TOI for Carolina.

        –Go Habs Go!–

        • chanchilla says:

          montreal had an infinitely better power play than carolina, the stats aren’t really comparable.

          • B says:

            Montreal did have a good power play that season, and Darche did not dampen that any during his limited participation in it. Darche actually had one of the teams best points per minute played on the PP that season. Cole meanwhile did nothing to help Carolina’s PP that season (Eric Staal on the other hand produced an impressive 29 PP points that season).

            I still believe that “Darche was actually reasonably effective in his limited PP role in 10/11”. The numbers more than support that comment IMO.

            –Go Habs Go!–

    • shiram says:

      I was just saying he was more visible back then, as he was given a bigger role.

      “The game isn’t played on the weight scale and it’s not played in the gym, it’s played on the ice and it’s whoever wanted it more.” #81

  43. HabFab says:

    Noticed earlier the posted Vegas sports bookies early Stanley Cup winning odds. So It appears they think that we are the 5th best Team in the East.

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      Again, Vegas odds don’t reflect strictly the likelihood of a team winning. They also take into account the fan base, how likely it is to place homer bets on their own team, despite the evidence. So a popular team’s odds will be inflated, while a less popular team like the Sens or Preds will get longer odds than they would merit based strictly on talent.

      • habstrinifan says:

        it’s like Tiger Woods and the Majors these days. But this weekend the odds will probably represent the real likelihood.

        In act it might be worth a $5.00 on a bet against him.

  44. shiram says:

    I was reading an interview with Ministry’s Al Jourgensen, he is a huge hockey fan, mostly of the BlackHawks, but he just loves hockey, and in it he said he married the daughter of a former Habs player, all I could find was that his wife is called Angelina? Anyone have a clue whose daughter she might be?

    Here’s the bit in the interview :

    One thing I really latched on to is how much of a sports fanatic you are. You must be pleased with the way the season ended [for the Chicago Blackhawks].
    Do you want to end the interview now and just talk about that? [laughs]. Please? I waited many, many years for that first [Stanley] Cup, and a second one is just a cherry on a sundae. I’m not as much of a sports fan as a hockey fan. My wife’s Dad played for the Montreal Canadiens. I married into hockey. I fly from Texas to Chicago all the time to see Hawks games. That’s my guilty pleasure – hockey. To get to know and befriend the owners – they are close friends – is extra rewarding. My blue collar Dad took me to my first game at six and we were in the nosebleed seats. That’s all we could afford. I worked my way down to the 200 level seats around The Land Of Rape and Honey. By Psalm 69 I was at the glass. After that I became friends with the owners. I live breathe and die hockey, music and politics. Other than that, I’m a boring guy.

    “The game isn’t played on the weight scale and it’s not played in the gym, it’s played on the ice and it’s whoever wanted it more.” #81

  45. Bill says:

    @B: I was aware of those hitting stats on Moen … they are hard to square with the fact of his general invisibility last year. I can’t explain it. Can you?

    • B says:

      I can’t say why Moen wasn’t as effective last season, but I don’t believe it was due to not hitting like he used to. Moen’s game isn’t just running around and hitting everything that moves (and some things that don’t move), it never was.

      –Go Habs Go!–

      • shiram says:

        in pas seasons he was given more ice time and was played on better lines than the 4th, Therrien kept him on short minutes, so he could “shine” as much.

        “The game isn’t played on the weight scale and it’s not played in the gym, it’s played on the ice and it’s whoever wanted it more.” #81

        • I think that has a lot to do with it — we didn’t see him as much because he just wasn’t playing as much, and wasn’t asked to do much outside of the defensive zone. That’s not a bad thing, though — at $1.8M, his cap hit isn’t obscene for a physical defensive specialist with a Cup under his belt, lots of PK minutes and the odd fight when needed.

    • Hobie Hansen says:

      Moen basically skated out onto to the ice, threw a hit, skated off. He forgot about the part where he was supposed to get his gloves up into people’s faces, whack people in the back of the legs and run the goalie over by mistake trick. ;-).

      • B says:

        I don’t think it is that simple, although he did seem to try and focus more on the defensive side of things. He was not shooting as much. Perhaps it was injury related? Perhaps he was instructed to play a certain way? Perhaps he was funking on his reduced TOI (chicken or egg?)? Hard to say for sure, but hopefully he will turn it around next season which for me means being a responsible bottom six forward who is hard to play against and who won’t back down. If he can’t do his job then his role should not be difficult to replace.

        –Go Habs Go!–

  46. B says:

    As a Duck, Moen had 451 hits in 261 games for an average of 1.727 hits per game.

    As a Hab, Moen has had 447 hits in 253 games for an average of 1.766 hits per game.

    Last season, Moen had 82 hits in 45 games for an average of 1.822 hits per game.

    –Go Habs Go!–

  47. Bill says:

    @PhilC: you can’t compare any sport to soccer. It’s so accessible, and by far the world’s most popular sport, one of the reasons for that being its accessibility.

    Hockey is a little different. Like football it requires hard hitting and physical contact. The key will be managing the violence, keeping physical contact, while avoiding serious trauma and death, like we saw in the KHL last year. Banning fighting would be a great start.

  48. Bill says:

    I understand why lots of people would not want to trade Gallagher. He’s a special player. But he’s also the kind of player who would fetch a nice return, and who is – hate to say it – more or less replaceable. So while I’d rather not see him go, you never know what another team might offer.

    A Subban or a Galchenyuk are not replaceable. And on the Habs, an Eller is just too valuable. He could put up 65-70 points with the right ice-time.

    • The_Truth says:

      I disagree with your assessment of Gallagher and Eller. Eller hasn’t gotten more than 16 goals and 30 points in a season. Even though his pace was good last year, It’s a big stretch to say he could get 70. He isn’t a goal scorer at all and not overly talented offensively. I’ll believe it when I see it.

      Gally scored 15 goals and 28 points in his rookie season at 20 years old, where Eller was terrible at 20 years old. I would be much more comfortable trading Eller, rather than Gally. Gally is and will be a better player and has that drive and nose for the net that can’t be taught.

      I think it is much more difficult to replace Gally than Eller.

  49. Bill says:

    @Ian: PS, there are lots of good resources for dyslexic kids now. I found a tutoring that specializes in dyslexia: one on one sessions where they teach kids totally different ways of reading, etc. It has worked great … even more expensive than hockey though, haha! Totally worth it though. They have made a huge difference in how he sees himself. I definitely admire you and how you never let anything get in your way. You are one of a kind.

  50. bwoar says:


    “Basically, you’re saying it doesn’t matter what people want, or what they believe, or who they choose to vote for — what they need is an enlightened despot to make the big decisions for them, because they lack the judgement and wisdom to choose what’s best for themselves or their societies.”

    Not quite. You’re interpolating that I care about what’s best for *them*.

    I am for democratic elections, but I can’t tolerate religious fundamentalism, anywhere, ever. I’ve been called a secular fundamentalist, which makes my teeth grind, but is sorta accurate. I don’t have issue with religion as a personal practice, to me it’s the same as a personal drug habit, or sexual proclivity, or any other private matter that isn’t my business.

    My line is this: no matter how peaceful a nation is, if their interests clash with ours, it will eventually lead to either direct conflict, or escalate a disagreement with our current detente partners (Russia & China, essentially, it’s still the bloody communists.)

    Syria is a great example of a terrible snarl, as we back the rebels (who are rife with religious fundamentalists and frankly this is crazy) and Russia backs the government (who are more than happy to slaughter their own citizens en masse.) Joining the rebel cause are plenty of ex-mujahideen types who see the chance for Western backing to mean weapons and money for themselves. This is probably why ‘Murica has been so slow to do anything, despite the obvious murder of the people of Syria by their own government.

    Russia, a state that is only all too happy to murder and imprison its own citizens with the slightest justification, is pro-messing-with-anything-they-can in the Middle East. Naturally they back al-Assad, mainly as a show of their own influence both towards other nations and domestically. There aren’t many pragmatic reasons for their pro-Assad stance, actually.

    Al-Assad, who was democratically elected in 2000 and again in 2007, and has plenty of support in Syria to this day. At the outset of the Arab Spring he began a crackdown on his own population that led to civil war. By ignoring that, we encouraged:

    1) the war’s escalation
    2) the influx of foreign fighters
    3) Russian’s pointless dick-swinging

    And in the end, people in Syria will blame the West for

    a) not getting involved sooner; and
    b) getting involved; and
    c) trying to tell people what to do

    And honestly, so will everyone else.

    SO, what I’m saying is that it is best for us to proactively influence, with force if necessary, governments and people who don’t share our ideals regardless of democratic election. Other countries will, if we don’t, and you can take that as a given. Non-state actors will do likewise. In the end, even if it’s not the best of all possible worlds, I believe it’s in our best interests to not to turn a blind eye to democratic elections, or just pat a population on the back, and say “heck of a job, Brownie!” The good guy they elect today may be either our enemy, or the ally of our enemy, tomorrow.


    • HabFab says:

      What about the religious fundamentalists running large parts of the USA and a major factor in American politics especially with the Republicans.
      You actually come across as an American neoconservative with their New World Order;
      – there is one way and that it ours
      – support us or shut up and don’t get in our way
      – official American foreign policy since the collapse of Communism

      • bwoar says:

        re NWO: Yep. Why is this a bad thing in your opinion?

        re USA fundamentalist jackwagons: give ’em a shovel and a bullet.


        • HabFab says:

          IMO there are two major threats to peace in the World.
          One shouts “there is One God and that is Allah”
          The other shouts “there is one way and that is the American”

          And neither represents the Muslim OR American people!!!!!!!!!

          • bwoar says:

            In my opinion, multiculturalism is a fairy story told by the default setting (white majority) to itself and others in order to encourage goodwill. In the end, there is an expectation that people in Canada (or America) all conform to the same set of laws & enjoy the same rights to the same degree.

            When a peoples’ culture includes more than just delicious food and beautiful art, but extends to little things like property law, and the right (or not) to an education, the idea of live and let live goes out the window.

            So in that sense, I do support the idea that there is only one way and it is Canadian (or American if you prefer). And I do think it’s the way the rest of the world ought to work, or I’d move some place where I thought things were even better. It’s very simple of you to look at the extremes and denounce both, but what do you proscribe?


          • HabFab says:

            The American way doesn’t work for Canadians and the Canadian way doesn’t work for them. And we are a couple of the closest countries in the world. And the UK system doesn’t work for us any more then the French system. It takes all kinds and they all have to find their own way. Another couple of examples are Iraq and Afghanistan, both attempted to be Westernized or Americanized. Never ever going to happen. Encourage them, don’t deal with major offenders and if force is needed … strike fast, hard and get the blazes out. Don’t try to make people over. If they want to be like Canadians or Americans, then they will immigrate.

    • Okay, so you don’t care what’s best for individuals — just for society. In that, your views align with the Mugabes, Putins and Kim Jong Uns of the world — incidentally, these are just the kind of secular strongmen who would replace the theocrats in your scenario

      And it would replace the world’s theocrats with Mugabes and Putins and Kim Jong Uns — secular-minded strongmen who would run the world in your scenario, and whose interests are just as contrary to those of Western democracies as the Ayatollah’s.

      For whatever my $0.02 is worth, the strategy you propose would also lead to a constant state of war on many, many fronts — wars that, taken together, could well be too much even for the Western powers, especially as they’d be fought overseas. The financial cost alone would be crippling — let alone the human one.

      It would also marginalise and radicalise a huge chunk of the world — people who would otherwise have had no interest in violence, but see no peaceful way to run their own countries the way they want to without military intervention from abroad. Terrorism would abound as powerless cash-poor marginalized people come to see it as their last resort. Even secular democratic-minded people would take up arms against the equally secular despots running their countries.

      This would also terrify and alienate a good chunk of your domestic population — I’m as secular-minded as anyone, but I want to live in a place where the people have the power to choose their leaders according to whatever crazy criteria they choose, simply because, as Churchill said, “democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”

      • bwoar says:

        You forgot some of the criteria:

        1) secular
        2) democratic
        3) Western-friendly

        #3 is important too. The Mugabes, Putins and Kim Jong Uns of the world don’t make the cut.

        People don’t radicalize for the reason you listed; or rather, those who do pretty much already have. People radicalize when they don’t have enough to eat. When they have no shelter for their children. When they can’t work a job. When they are kept from their families. These kind of circumstances must be present for a population to take arms. “USA just overthrew the guy we elected” won’t cut it, unless overthrowing said guy creates the ills I’ve outlined.

        You’re going to say that an endless state of war would create those things, and you are right. But there will be (in fact, there is) no such endless war as you imply. We are already there, as I said, in practical terms. There’s no GWOT, as such, moreso a “Global War for Hegemony of Influence” on the part of the two failed superpowers. The quotient of terrorism in the world is not suddenly going to increase from where it is currently.

        Most importantly, people just want the same things as always: enough to eat, safe shelter, freedom to live in peace among a peaceful population. You are overestimating peoples’ desire to self-determine their own government, by a wide margin. Just for funsies: look at Canada, where 38% of the popular vote gets you federal power. The other 62% of the population are basically told to suck it – and they do, with a smile.

        As far as terrifying and alienating a good chunk of domestic population the USA is already like that, and I don’t see any major political reforms happening, or anyone remotely large enough trying to do something about it.


  51. Bill says:

    Ian: thanks for your response. Actually when my kid was diagnosed – I already knew there was something really wrong with a smart kid and the son of an English teacher who couldn’t read – one of the first things I thought of was you and your story. You’re a great inspiration my friend, especially to me personally, with the connection I make between you and my son!

  52. HabFab says:

    Just for chuckles, okay it’s not funny but remember some positive posts one day here when the new “moderate” Iranian President was elected. He speaks at his inauguration;

    • habstrinifan says:

      I was one of those who hoped. Maybe this was all stoopid propoganda stuu.. or then again maybe he’s just another dumb a-hole.
      Would be sad! Especially with Kerry seemingly putting some life into the Peace process.

  53. HabFab says:

    Noticed earlier that Bill uprated the site to “Hockey Intellects Online”.

  54. HabFab says:

    This one is just for you, you will have to translate if your French isn’t there;

    • habstrinifan says:

      Thank you Sir! WOW! Thanks a million! I shall put out the ‘no-disturb’ sign and enjoy while I practise my french reading skills. Already linked to it and it looks like a longish read… A plus.

    • Hobie Hansen says:

      Crappy Google Translate:

      Forward Michael Bournival would like to create a big surprise in training camp for the Montreal Canadiens this season. The player of the Hamilton Bulldogs recently spoke with Hockey Magazine, with whom he has agreed to return on his debut in the organization of the Habs.

      Although he had an early season sawtooth, the center player of 21 years says quite satisfied with the performance offered club-CH School in 2012-2013. Bournival concluded the calendar third among team scoring with 30 points (10-20) in 69 games. “It was a little difficult at the beginning of the season, but I still showed good growth throughout the year, says Bournival. As the season progressed, I was confident in my abilities with the puck and I had a good end of season. ”

      Bournival had only good things to say about the coaching staff Bulldogs. Admittedly, Sylvain Lefebvre and his deputies, who were in their first season at the helm of the team, did not hesitate to use all the sauces throughout the year. “I have nothing negative to say regarding the role and time of use that have been attributed to me this season, he says. We had a difficult season as a team, so I had a lot more ice time than what I expected initially. It was a good thing for my development and all this baggage of experience will be very useful this year. ”

      The former captain of the Shawinigan Cataractes and some of his teammates have also been recalled by the Montreal Canadiens, shortly before the conclusion of the regular season. An experience that, by his own admission, it will be greatly beneficial for future years. “It is certain that this was something very positive for me and my development, recognizes Bournival. It allowed me to work certain aspects of my game with the coaching staff and spend a few weeks in the environment of the team. In the event that I would be reminded by the club this year, I’ll know more on what to think because I have already had the experience. ”

      “I want to create a surprise”

      Although the chances are slim at the moment, the attacker 5 ft. 11 in. and 191 lb hope muddy the next drive of the Canadian camp. “I’ll introduce myself to the camp with the intention to make the leap from this season, he admits. I want to create a big surprise and make my way with the big club as soon as possible. I will work hard, I’ll stick to my game and this is how I will achieve my goal. ”

      If he did not have the opportunity to begin the 2013-2014 season with the cast of Michel Therrien, the Quebecers would like to be one of the first players recalled for injury. He also plans to spend a lot of time in the gym over the next few weeks in order to be in optimal physical condition. “For now, I focus only on the training camp of the Canadian, says former striker Estacades Three Rivers Midget AAA. I still have many things to improve and I try to enjoy the time I have left to refine certain aspects of my game I’ll spend much time in the gym and on the ice by the end of the was to be 100% ready when the camp will begin. ”

      Michaël Bournival, who was drafted in the third round (71st overall) by the Colorado Avalanche in 2010, was traded to the Canadiens on November 11, 2010, in exchange for defenseman Ryan O’Byrne. A transaction that the main interest has seen a good eye, who had always wanted to put on the uniform blue-white-red during his childhood. “I am extremely happy to be part of the organization of the CH, he says. This is a great organization that takes care of its young, which helps us to improve day by day. This transaction has been very beneficial to me and I am very happy to Montreal. ”

      By Simon Bédard

  55. Cal says:

    Whatever happened to allowing a child to play a game for fun? Why does every mom/dad think they have the next great star on their hands, instead of a kid having fun PLAYING A GAME?
    When I was a kid, I played ball hockey for hours and hours. My family didn’t have the resources to get us skates (having 8 brothers and sisters will do that to a family budget), but we played the heck out of the game. I still remember pretending to be the Pocket Rocket bearing down on any kid stuck between the pipes (they actually were pipes- nets were too dear). Hockey was fun, period. It wasn’t this horrible minor league business it is today.

    • Timo says:

      Retirement fund?

    • bwoar says:

      We still do it. I think there’s a distinction to be made between organized minor hockey, and just friends / family circles getting together for shinny, street hockey & the like. If my kids want to join an organized league, I will support them, but we have a lot of fun just playing the game for now.

      We teach that sports are supposed to be fun, and if you aren’t having fun, try something else. There are so many great sports out there that any kid can have fun. I grew up around people who pushed their kids for “pro” hockey and they were the opposite of fun. I also have family who made it to junior and quit because it stopped being fun. Why waste your time doing things you don’t love?


    • SmartDog says:

      On the other end of the scale, I have a challenge on my hands with a soccer coach who thinks that kids (10 and 11) shouldn’t ever be disciplined for being absolute clowns in practice or taught strategy because they “just want to have fun”. I don’t care about star status of my son or anyone else. But I care deeply about learning the craft of the game, and joining in a shared cause. Playing well, and playing as a team, should be part of the fun. Otherwise, there’s a playground next door.

      PS: It’s still rant day right?

      Listen to the Smart Dog. He knows his poop!

    • habstrinifan says:

      I like your use of the word ‘dear’. Some UK background?

      • Un Canadien errant says:

        I used that word in that context in a surf shop in San Diego once. The dude who was helping me had no idea what I was saying. When we left the shop my compadres made fun of me, how I was hanging with too many Brits and Aussies and was picking up their lingo.

      • Cal says:

        Actually, my father always used to use that term (in English), and he was a French Canadian from Saskatchewan.

  56. frontenac1 says:

    Viva Parros! Muy Macho! Saludos Amigos!

  57. SmartDog says:


    I liked your post in praise of Plekanec below. My favorite player. There are others I like now as much really but will stay loyal to the guy who’s given more to this team than anyone.

    I’m eager for either Galchenyuk or Eller to become the #1 AND see what effect that has on the team and on Pleks. I don’t love some of MB’s moves, but what I do feel good about is that he seems to be very methodical, see a need, fill it, see a need, fill it. (For me Briere even falls under a certain sort of “need”… not a need I agree with but…) As young top 6 wingers we have Patches and Gallagher, and hopefully Bourque (if he plays like he did last year). One more winger with punch could make our top two lines better than they’ve been in… jeez, I dunno how long.

    Great post about minor hockey and your son as well.
    Are you coming to the summit?

    Listen to the Smart Dog. He knows his poop!

  58. Sportfan says:

    OLd news, but here you go A-Rod could be done for a while.

    Sports and Entertainment in the link click and enjoy, clicking is fun!

  59. Un Canadien errant says:

    Maybe a final thought about making hockey accessible is that there are different degrees of hockey, we can’t be purists who insist that hockey means minor hockey with coaches and set teams and all that. In gym class in high school, we played Cosom hockey (does that still exist?) for a while, and we had an intra-mural league, and we’d do that for a month then rotate through volleyball and handball and as spring hit we’d do track and field and softball. Anyway, everyone loved floor hockey, but the guys who for some reason or other had never played or touched a hockey stick were especially happy to play. You could tell the guys who played minor hockey, we had more moves, but the other guys and girls were really into it. Our fantastic phys ed teacher Mr. Roblin would insist on keeping the sticks down, he’d be ruthless about calling a penalty on anyone who raised their stick above their waist for any reason, that kept it safe, and everyone had a good time. And if we didn’t play Cosom hockey, some of our classmates might never have played hockey of any kind.

    So ball hockey leagues are a good way to introduce people to the sport, they’ll get a kick out of it. Rollerblading is kind of dying after the big boom in the nineties, but players like Joe Mullen and Brady Vail came to hockey by way of roller hockey, so that should be encouraged also, the cost is minimal to have a paved surface for hockey compared to maintaining an ice sheet. Here, we have a couple of tennis courts that have been repurposed into a roller hockey area, and it has basketball nets and is used by novice skateboarders when hockey isn’t being played.

    Hockey Canada should encourage programs like that, we see a few, but they should be seen as not just an add-on, a sidetrack, a luxury, but rather as a feeder system, and just as legitimate as ‘real’ hockey. Jonathan Drouin famously started playing ball hockey, he loved stickhandling and dekeing, and would even play hockey on an outdoor rink while wearing snow boots. Eventually, his parents told him he’d need to learn how to skate to continue playing, and look at how that worked out.

    • PG_doesnt_stand_for_Pierre_Gauthier says:

      Great post! And yes it still exists in high school. Even my 4 year old plays hockey at kindergarden!

      Markov to Subban, he scores!

  60. Bill says:

    Canadiens who should absolutely not be traded:


    I’d consider a good trade for anyone else, including Gallagher or Tinordi or even Price, if the return was worthwhile.

    • Ian Cobb says:

      Bill, posted to you below my friend.

    • knob says:

      Canadiens who should absolutely be traded:


      I’d consider a good trade for Markov, if and when Beaulieu is ready.

      • Desharnais is actually decent value for his production, but he’s the odd man out at centre IMO.

        Gorges is probably a hair overpaid, but he’s a very good 2nd-pairing defensive defenceman.

        Moen I think we need to keep because we’ll get nothing for him, and because he’s an excellent penalty killer. He may not score like he did on the second line on a terrible team a couple of years ago, but frankly fair enough — he never hurts his team when he’s on the ice. The biggest knock against him is that his hit totals — though they’ve gone up — are not as crushing as they once were. I guess that’s not ideal, but it’s hardly a reason to throw him under the bus.

    • I hate to say it, as I’m a big Eller fan, but if I were a GM and MB came calling about a top-4 defenceman or a physical scoring winger, I’d be asking for Eller as a starting point, and with our glut at centre MB may not say no.

      • Cal says:

        Pleks goes waaay before Eller. Simply because Pleks will garner a return the Habs can use right away and it won’t be some reclamation project or problem child. MB must address the weakass D problem or this season could be real embarrassing.

        • SmartDog says:

          I love Pleks (as posted above) and would hate to see him traded. But he might be worth trading in that he will bring a big return from a team that gets his value – and that Eller is basically being trained to fill his role. Still wouldn’t want to trade him – he’s a smart player and I think will have good longevity – but the right deal might show up.

          Listen to the Smart Dog. He knows his poop!

    • Timo says:

      I would add Emelin. Everyone saw that happened to the team’s D when Emelin ran into Lucic last year.

    • habstrinifan says:

      I’m ok with this 4 but you gotta add Gallagher. You dont find a Gallagher everyday. Check his junior career… this past year is no fluke. Check his physique despit height. This is no injury prone body. Check his heritage… great bloodlines. This was a huge horseshoe up our *** pick.. like Subban was.

      If two players, presently on the HABS, are gonna lead us to the Stanley Cup or get ‘fed up’ farting around and leave… I say Gallagher and P.K.

  61. Phil C says:

    There was a dicussion on the other page about concussions in hockey and that it is impossible to remove all risk. While this is true, it is insane to have a sport where it is acceptable to concuss someone while playing within the rules. Fighting should be illegal. Any contact to the head should be two minutes, even a face wash after the whistle. And they need to eliminate violent hitting, put the onus on the hitter not to hit too hard. I know this would change the game significantly, but the status quo is unacceptable. I absolutely love hockey, but I would never ever let my son play contact hockey as the rules currently stand. Simply not worth it.

    We all love the big hit, but if you have ever been on the receiving end of one, it may change your opinion.

    As for the entertainment value of the violence, I believe for every fan you would lose with a less violent game, you would gain another who appreciates the non-violent aspects of the game. I will probably enjoy watching Parros fight, but I can’t wait to watch Galchenyuk and Briere dangle. As such, the importance of the violence to the sport’s popularity is often exaggerated, IMO.

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      Exactly. Would basketball be better if players were allowed to tackle and punch Kobe Bryant and LeBron James, to make them ‘earn every inch’ and ‘let them know they’re there’? It’s ridiculous that NHL hockey is the only sport that skews its rules and enforcement away from the most talented players, and from the sport being played at its highest level, toward the plugs and average players.

      I hate basketball, but they profited from and hyped Magic vs. Larry Bird, and the Michael Jordan era. Meanwhile, we wasted Wayne vs. Mario, and are now wasting the careers of Sidney Crosby and Alex Ovechkin.

      But good job Gary, revenues are growing, ratings are up, so things are great.

      • Phil C says:

        Basketball is a great example. Soccer is another sport that does not need violence to be popular. Hockey Canada should be paying a attention to soccer because it is enjoying tremendous growth in Canada and with domes can be played year round. Unless hockey becomes safer, I can see more Canadian parents choosing soccer.

  62. Bill says:

    No Donnie, these men are nihilists, there’s nothing to be afraid of.

  63. youngwun says:

    Anyone else think Galchenyuk should play center this year ? Not LW

    • That probably would be best for his development, but with Plekanec, Eller and Desharnais all locks to play centre, I can’t see it happening — unless one of them is traded, of course.

      That said, I’d really hate to lose Eller, but if we do make a splash with a trade to get a physical top-2 defenceman, I’d wager a beer that he’s part of the asking price.

      Mike Boone: “With Gainey at my side, I’d walk into any dark alley in the world.”

    • junyab says:

      Let him develop his offensive game on the wing instead of his two way game in the middle.

      Not sure if people know this, but he played A LOT on the wing in Sarnia (including all 4 games I saw him play in).

      • HammerHab says:

        he lined up at wing but more often than not he was all over the ice.


        It’ll always be Habs Inside/Out to me

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      The kid’s 19, played just half a season of NHL hockey, and the season before that missed almost all of it because of a knee injury.

      There’s no rush. He’ll have his plate full getting a full season with increased minutes on the wing, with spot situational shifts at centre.

      Progression is an important part of skill development. He’ll progress playing on the wing, and eventually ease into centre.

      • Habfan17 says:

        I completely disagree. One of the weaknesses on the Habs for many years has been faceoffs. Galchenyuk is not ready for 1st or 2nd line duty, however, he needs to learn the nuances of the officials dropping th puck and the tricks experienced players use to win the draws, he will not get that on the wing. I think it is a waste having him learn all that in a year or two. he is a centre, he is very talented, and has a very high hockey IQ. He can handle 3rd line centre.


    • Habfan17 says:

      Me too!


  64. punkster says:

    I don’t do rants…I do mellow…probably because I grew up in a generation that said So What:

    ***SUBBANGIN’ NOW BABY!!!***

    • HabFanSince72 says:

      Didn’t you grow up a Leaf fan? “So What” is an apt response.

      Anyway now that we have George Parros to free Prust to take on the middleweights which will free Moen and White to take on the light middleweights which will free Bouillon to take on the lightweights which will free Gorges to take on the non-fighters, the Montreal emergency rooms should be hopping. Kaching baby.

  65. Bill says:

    About kids’ hockey:

    My son has played organized hockey from five years old. The expense is considerable for someone as middle-class as me, and when he became a goalie in Novice, it obviously got a lot worse, haha.

    But it’s so worth it to see how much fun they have, just being a part of a team, under the usually amazing volunteers who coach the teams. I’ve gotten choked up watching those dedicated coaches pump the kids up and make them cheer, and seeing how they can make the kids feel like a million bucks whether they win or lose.

    My boy is dyslexic and school is very hard for him. When he got good as a goalie and started getting compliments and awards, hockey became a huge part of restoring his self-esteem. And he’s learning about work ethic, pushing himself, and being part of a group. It’s been worth every penny, even if it’s hard to afford, which it is.

    I completely agree that Hockey Canada needs to do something to bring the game to more kids, because it’s such a valuable experience, and obviously not a lot of families can afford the massive expense of putting a kid through the program.

    • krob1000 says:

      read what I jsut worte about building kid only smaller rinks below….no frills, no bleachers, standing room only….limit the space, increase the participation in numbers and gameplay involvement. Baseball, soccer, basketball, golf, …they all use smaller surfaces for kids…not hockey. Rinks are designed with the viewers in mind with little regard for the players who just need a surface. They could cut the cost in half or far less actually and have the same amout of people playing if they geared it for kids only.

  66. Un Canadien errant says:

    About Erik Nystrom signing a pro-tryout contract with the Bulldogs, I’m trying to figure this one out.

    1) We have his NHL rights until next June, since he was drafted June 2012.

    2) He’s not signed to a contract yet, I guess we’re ‘wait and seeing’.

    3) The pro-tryout will allow the Canadiens to see how he does in a North American pro situation, and he gets to see if he likes it here and wants to be here.

    4) If he plays well, we can sign him to an entry-level deal.

    5) If he’s borderline, are we allowed to sign him to an AHL deal? I think we are, but that then he’s technically an NHL free agent, with any team able to swoop in and grab him. But does the fact that we own his draft rights until next June supersede that?

    6) I guess he doesn’t have a SEL contract. If the experiment doesn’t work out for both parties, I guess he can always return to Sweden and get a contract there.

    For what it’s worth, there were some encouraging writeups about this young man during the Summer Development Camp.

    • HabFab says:

      I’m a little surprised by this too. Had actually heard someone mention a PTO after the prospect camp but took it to mean that he would be over in the spring like the other junior aged players.

      • Un Canadien errant says:

        Another detail I’m wondering about is that CHL players who play in the AHL when their teams get eliminated in the spring sign an Amateur Tryout Contract. Erik Nystrom is signing a Pro Tryout Contract, the same as Mike Commodore and a few others did with the Bulldogs last season. Does anyone know why the difference? Is Mr. Nystrom already considered a pro, since he played in the SEL?

        We need commandant in here…

  67. Bill says:

    Hey UCE, glad you’re enjoying “Widow”. That was a great reading experience for me. I loved the interludes where the father’s children’s books were described … that was fantastic. And Ruth’s story gets so engrossing.

    When you’ve finished the book, check out the movie version, “The Door in the Floor”, a terrific moving picture starring one of my absolute favourite actors, the great Jeff Bridges. You’ll love it.

  68. Bill says:

    @Ed: I’m pretty agnostic on the abortion issue actually. I don’t like the whole idea of it, philosophically. But I don’t have a clue what I would do if its legality were up to me … not confident that I really know what’s best in that case.

  69. Walmyr says:


    So, I have 3 years to meet (finally) Gisele Bundchen…then try to convince here to do some demonstrations (at Hurley’s Pub I believe)…

    ok…but if Gisele doesn’t agree can I take Isabeli Fontana instead?!

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      Hold on, let’s go to Googleland for a few moments, I’ll be right back with a response.

      • Walmyr says:

        Help me out man, Isabeli is “easier” to convince….because there is no Tom Brady!!!…and Isabeli use to spend a lot of time here in Rio…I would have to go Massachusetts!!!…

        and…look at her (or google her…I suppose)…

  70. Bill says:

    Trini: Buckley and Frye have a lot in common in terms of being extremely serious about the art of using English. I think another good comparison would be to Harold Bloom, or maybe the best comparison is to Allan Bloom. I always reading all those guys. Frye’s book on Shakespeare is a favourite, as is Allan Bloom’s “The Closing of the American Mind”.

  71. Bill says:

    Ed, the fact that there are other players like Plekanec out there doesn’t really diminish him. Because he’s still great and the Habs are lucky to have him. Plekanec is oft-lauded here as the ideal #2 centre, and it is certainly
    a shame that he has had to be the #1, but that’s not his fault. He has produced well offensively even while being required to play most of the “tough minutes”. He’s one of the players I appreciate most, and before Subban’s emergence he was the Habs MVP, no question.

  72. So long as we’re talking politics, what do we think of this article in The Economist?

    They basically argue (pretty convincingly IMO) that the West has been cowardly and hypocritical in refusing to condemn the army’s removal of Morsi from power, and that this sends a strong message to religious groups that the West only favours democracy so long as secular Western-friendly governments are elected. It may also lead religious groups to reject democracy in favour of violence — why run in a free and fair election if you know you won’t be allowed to stay in power no matter how the people vote?

    • mount royal says:

      It is a dilemma, but perhaps marks a changing point in modern politics. 17 million Egyptians said that they wanted to get rid of a corrupt and incompetent government and they weren`t prepared to wait until the next elections. Things were going to get really bad, so, the army stepped in. In today`s world of instant communications from and amongst all citizens, politicians are no longer going to get a free 4-year ride, in which they ignore election promises and stuff their pockets.

      • Your post makes a lot of sense. At the same time though, if the roles had been reversed and a 17-million-strong Muslim Brotherhood protest had led to a military coup against a secular government, I’d wager the West would be lamenting the fall of democracy.

        Sure, Egypt is probably much better off under a secular government, and Morsi was way out of his depth. But we’ve got a real double standard here, and so much of a blind spot that we don’t even know it.

        Mike Boone: “With Gainey at my side, I’d walk into any dark alley in the world.”

    • bwoar says:

      The West should only favour governments that are –

      1) secular
      2) democratic
      3) Western-friendly

      – in that order. Every other government ought to be wiped over the map forever, and anyone who disagrees with that probably needs a bullet, too.

      Voting? The West never really cared how anyone voted. This isn’t new, it’s been policy for generations. The reason, simply put, is that other peoples’ ways of life are often incompatible with our love of freedom (such as we are willing to defend, anyhow, in this day & age), and eventually, we come into conflict with those people.

      There are tons of people in Egypt right now hoping for a secular, democratically-elected government, but plenty who don’t, and plenty more outsiders looking to influence elections for their own reasons (i.e. states like Russia, China, etc. or organizations like Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. etc.)

      Since we know that there will be a mass of outside influencers who are overt enemies to the West, it’s only prudent for the West to in turn exert whatever influence possible in order to counter this. Any discussion of theoretical “free elections” or “true democracy” or any of that bullcrap is hippy-dippy stardust nonsense; in the end, on the ground, it’s about promoting irreligious, friendly, rule-of-secular-law allies for the West, and helping people who want the same things we all want: freedom from arbitrary punishments, freedom of expression, freedom from Wahhabi/Salafist crazies, freedom to send our girls to school, etc. etc.

      There’s both a hot and cold war of civilization going on; it was made overt on 9/11/2001 but has been around for far longer. What we’ve seen during the so-called “Arab Spring” is a paroxysm of it; stay tuned as it will get worse before it gets better.


      • Are you saying that if a country elects religious governments, those governments should be continually overturned — militarily if necessary, and against the will of the people — until they “choose” the government we want them to?

        • bwoar says:

          Yes, I thought that was pretty clear. To be 100% crystal clear, I think religious governments and religion-based laws in Western countries should be immediately rejected as well. The only way to get stupider leadership than we currently have is to let religion creep in any further than it already has. If people choose these kinds of governments, their will ought to be subverted.

          Essentially if people vote to be enemies of the West, in my opinion they are asking for interference at best, and invasion & subjugation at worst. The one (and only one) thing GWB ever got right: you are either for or against. In reality there is no practical middle ground.

          Do you not think this is so?


          • Basically, you’re saying it doesn’t matter what people want, or what they believe, or who they choose to vote for — what they need is an enlightened despot to make the big decisions for them, because they lack the judgement and wisdom to choose what’s best for themselves or their societies. That could word-for-word be a religious fundamentalist’s election platform. Except he wouldn’t bother with elections. He’d just topple his government by force, in the name of some deity — while you’d topple it in the name of secularism.

            I’m absolutely not a fan of religion. But I think the quickest way to radicalise religious people — or any people — is to tell them they can’t believe what they want to believe, or run their lives/countries the way they want to. It’s also a good way to turn your society into the very small-minded, closed-off, paranoid society you’re trying to avoid.

  73. Bill says:

    Big William F. Buckley fan here, Cautious. Not the politics, the writing. He’s great to read.

    • habstrinifan says:

      Same here Bill. Does Buckley’s style bring to mind Northrop Frye any? Not is ideas so much as in expression.

    • Can’t say I’m familiar with his writing, but from what little I know, it sounds like he was at least a more consistent conservative than the Rush Limbaugh types who are libertarian one minute and authoritarian the next.

      Either way, the $h!t disturber in me couldn’t resist making that particular retort. : )

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