The contract would cover 14 years … this while the NHL is seeking a five-year limit on contracts.
According to (Darren) Dreger, the deal may be structured in a way that would prevent a small-market club like Nashville from matching the offer, by way of $26 million in signing bonuses between now and July 1, 2013. That may be tough for Nashville to match, since they would be forking over nearly 16 percent of their entire franchise’s net worth ($163 million in 2011 according to Forbes magazine) in one calendar year.
Terry Jones of the Edmonton Sun on Twitter: I’ve seen coaches lose the dressing room. But I think we’re watching Gary Bettman lose the board room.
And Kevin Paul Dupont of the Boston Globe: First Suter. Now Weber. That ‘Predators’ tag is looking, well, a little bit ironic?
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webber traded in 6-8 years with no cup and a big waste of money ha ha ah
New thread up.
But I think we can hit a 1,000 here.
TJ Oshie signs with STL for 5 years at $4.175 per.
I had a small hope he’d go to arbitration, get a huge award and the blues walk away
It was a pipe dream, i know
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Let’s forget the money and any sense of fair play in the Weber signing.
Holmgren certainly has the stones to make the moves he feels are necessary. Pronger is basiclly retired. Weber is in danger of going to New York, Pittsburgh or Detroit. Holmgren is able to use the Pronger/Timonen future cap space to sign Weber for ten years (in reality) which takes Weber to 37. Without Weber, there is no Cup in Philly during the next five years. Without a Cup, Holmgren is eventually gone and Ed Snider is on the clock in terms of life expectancy.
From that framework, it all begins to make sense.
What about the five, lower half draft picks? That’s another story for another day.
I don’t fault Holmgren in the least for trying to find a way to land the best defenceman in hockey. That team is very close to winning and Weber should help. I just have to imagine that Holmgren wishes that Snider hadn’t been so hot to trot for Bryzgalov. (rumour was that Snider was more behind that signing than Holmgren was)
Agreed. It’s much like the Kolvalchuk signing in New Jersey. Or with Buffalo last summer.
Any team can find a decent goalie over a short period of time. Snider hit the panic button. Worse case scenario being that he would have waited Bryzgalov out for a few days/weeks and then gone for shorter term. Or traded for one of the good kids that are on the goalie market.
BTW, my golf game has gone to hell. Gomez getting a hole in one certainly doesn’t help.
Don’t tell anyone on the site but the rumour mill has Sergei Samsonov coming back to Montreal on a one year deal to play LW.
“I don’t fault Holmgren in the least…”
I agree and would add that if any team can “afford” to give up 4 1st round picks, it’s the team that made the second round last season with half a dozen rookies in important roles.
So if Nashville opts to match the offer, can Weber refuse to sign it? What would happen then? I assume he would have to sit out the season but with labour strife on the horizon, maybe not a bad option for a guy who clearly has no interest in playing in Nashville. Weber could really piss in Poile’s pickles if he went down that road
“man, I love winnin’; you know, it’s like better than losin’?”-
Ebby Calvin “Nuke” Laloosh
No, Weber cannot refuse.
If Nashville matches, he’s a predator for at least one calendar year.
If Weber doesn’t show up he forfeits 27 million dollars over the course of the first calendar year, never to see that money again.
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My understanding is that he can’t refuse. Weber either plays for Nashville or Philly, at the exact salary stipulated in the offer sheet.
–
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So my new/adopted hometown of Kawarhta Lakes Ontario aka Lindsay, is up against Trenton tomorrow for the Kraft Tour thing from TSN. The local Rugby Club is the beneficiary and is spearheading this initiative. If any of you have the inclination to vote and help these kids out in Lindsay, it would be greatly appreciated. Just go to http://www.kraftcelebrationtour.ca/. The Rugby Club in Lindsay has produced some terrific players, a couple of whom currently play for Canada. There are a lot of kids in this area that cold use a little direction, and being part of clubs and playing team sports goes a long way to keeping them on the right path. Thanks!
Apologies for the non-hockey related post.
“man, I love winnin’; you know, it’s like better than losin’?”-
Ebby Calvin “Nuke” Laloosh
Welcome to the neighbourhood.
Did not know Trenton was even in the running. I’m an army brat leaving in the Maritimes now, but lived in Trenton as a kid from 74 to 77. Played my minor hockey for the Trenton Rangers way back before, I guess, Trenton and Belleville joined forces to become the same minor hockey league.
“They don’t hang Conference Championship Banners from the rafters here”
Carey Price
Does this Weber deal prove that player don’t really need any of that UFA status, or arbitration rights to get paid fairly?
We have 7 offer sheets since the last lockout…. I wouldn’t call it enough to take care of the entire league.
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This is off topic but it made me laugh:
Scott Gomez won a new, US$50,000 Acura MD X Thursday when he hit a hole-in-one at his own Scotty Gomez Foundation Celebrity Golf Tournament.
If the worst happens and there’s an NHL work stoppage, maybe Gomez goes for his tour card. Maybe he gets it. Maybe he turns into an amazing golfer and only comes back to Montreal when the Canadian Open is held here. Maybe.
He get’s a hole in one playing golf but can’t hit the side of barn when he shoots a puck. Unreal.
Let’s hope when he returns to playing hockey and is bearing down on the netminder, he looks for the par-three hole.
Maybe some grooves in the blade of his stick will help next year, get that extra bite on the puck!
You could be onto something! Just as the curved blade revolutionized the sport, maybe grooves will result in an uptick in scoring. [Burl', I haven't googled it yet but you might want to patent the idea first thing in the morning.]
Omigawd, I just found out Gomez got his ace on a par-five hole!!!
Scott Gomez shot it, and it went in!
Its a freaking miracle.
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Please tell me Gomez is going to donate the car to charity.
I play in a tournament every year where every hole is a hole in one hole for a car. Been close a few times, maybe now that Scotty has done this, it will inspire me to win one! Good for Scotty, I can’t fault a guy for getting a hole in one.
These offer sheets would be a lot more interesting if there was not so much cap room. Because the cap went up by $6M, every team has the room to match most offer sheets. If the cap ever goes down and teams get into salary cap trouble, it will be more interesting.
It is astonishing how much the cap has increased since the lockout. Hard to imagine that next year the Toronto Maple Leafs could in theory have a larger payroll than the Toronto Blue Jays. Given the magnitude of money in Baseball, there is no way those two payrolls should be in the same bracket.
Given Nashville has 7 days to decide what to do, is it known forsure yet whether the NHL has rubberstamped the format of the contract offered by Philly? If not, is there a timeline for when they rule on that?
it obeys all the rules under the kovalchuk ruling
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I think it will get passed, just didn’t know if the NHL has officially done so yet, or if they have a date set when it will be officially blessed.
Edit: But did Kovalchuk have such a huge signing bonus in years 1 and 2?
its still at or below the league max for any given year so its fine
The issue with kovalchuk was there were no term limits on contracts, the kovalchuk rule did that by redifining the cap hits on any deal after the age of 40.
all the other rules (ie max money allowed per year) were well defined in the CBA
The Flyers obeyed all the well defined rules
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Thanks Commandant.
Rumour has it Poile locked himself in his office the whole day and the only sounds to be heard were a bunch of Carrie Underwood tunes being played over and over again: Blown Away, What Can I Say, Undo It, and Jesus, Take the Wheel.
Another rumour making the rounds is that the Discovery channel is putting together a documentary on Nashville: When Predators Become Prey
so the weber deal is 4 first. I thought it was 2 firsts, a 2nd and a 3rd.
I havent been following. What’s the story?
There is a rule in the CBA that causes the contracts value to be divided by 5 years, since the term is longer than that. As a result the cap hit falls into the max. category, thus 4 first round picks.
Nice. That seems fair.
Earlier on commandant wrote a piece on offer sheets. I asked why Phil Kessel wasn’t mentioned and the reply was that Kessel was traded. Well. Yeah.
It was only a trade because of Burke’s anathema to offer sheets after his experience with (Kevin Lowe of) the Oiler’s making an offer sheet for Penner that Burke didn’t or couldn’t match when he was with Anaheim. Burke tied his own hands with his outburst after that incident so when he went after Kessel a few years later he paid more than an offer sheet would have cost him because of it. I think this needs to be mentioned because it speaks to the narrative of the dangers of throwing away picks on signings, whether through trade or offer sheets.
As far as Weber is concerned and from the stand point of Nashville, no question, do not match. If the player didn’t sign he’s already gone. Very few teams can get 4 first round picks, even if late first picks, for a player. The objective is for Nashville to Tank™ now, which they will, and start the rebuild proper. They blew their load on their last play-off run, if you want to call it that, by losing in the 1st round. They traded picks like they were drunken sailors for a 1st round exit. They should think about spending money on drafting and scouts rather than match that offer sheet.
They lost Suter. Now they will lose Weber. Bite the bullet and rebuild. They will have 4 years of two picks in the 1st round and they can also trade Rinne when his contract nears expiring. All while living off of shared revenues from Montreal, Toronto, and New York. Too bad they didn’t trade Suter. Probably would have made it to the 2nd round.
The Flyers though have a team that will be a power house, minus the goaltending, immediately. It is a heavy cost but they have players of value they can flip to restock on picks. Their time is now. Weber is even a great player to build a team around, kind of like Chara was for Boston. Yep. If the Flyers can get goal-tending they should appear in the Stanley Cup Finals again soon. Probably lose again, but that’s been their story since 1976.
I think the Habs need to stand pat until they clear the Gomez, Kaberle, Markov, and Gionta contracts. Montreal looks very much like an up and coming organization and could be very strong in a few years with its young core that is being built through their system. With the 20+ million cleared the Habs then would be in a position to make a splash in free agency. Then if they can, sign a generational player for mega-bucks. But Montreal is not there yet.
Toronto was never there and Kessel is not a player to build a team around.
Philadelphia is there and Weber is the kind of player to build around.
Nashville will be challenging Columbus and Edmonton for top draft lottery honours next season.
Good point. Nashville has already lost Suter and Radulov for nothing and about to lose AKos and Weber. Having Gaustad and four 1st-rounders to show for it while saving some money for a year or two would probably be in their best interest. They need to rebuild and maybe a 2013 lottery pick will assuage the pain of 2012.
Nashville did make the second round
Also Weber signing an offersheet doesnt mean he’s already gone. See my piece again and guys like Stevens “trying to leave” Jersey, Sakic “trying to leave” Colorado, and Fedorov trying to leave Detroit
Thats a total of 6 cups for those 3 guys with the team that matched after they tried to leave
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I like you because you correct me. They did make the 2nd round. But still. They only did that because they don’t like 3rd rounds.
HH: Why didn’t you include Kessel?
C: Because it wasn’t an offer sheet.
HH: Yeah but that’s because Burke doesn’t like offer sheets.
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Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.
The details of the Kessel deal don’t even matter. This is the situation:
The Nashville Predators can have their choice of:
A} Shea Weber
OR
B} Four 1st round draft picks.
How we arrived at this point makes ABSOLUTELY no difference.
ANY trade of any player for draft picks is fair game for comparison.
option C ) trade the 4 first rounders back to Philly for something else
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Option C would see Nashville receive a combination of players/picks/prospects that both the Predators and the Flyers perceive to have exactly the same value as four 1st round draft picks.
*”The Nashville Predators can have their choice of:
A} Shea Weber
OR
B} Four 1st round draft picks.”*…
…or something with EXACTLY the same value as option “B” which is still the same decision as “A” v. “B”
Can you also explain how you sell to an non traditional hockey market that 6-8 years from now these 4 first round picks will pay off dividends? I don’t believe the owner of the Preds is running a non profit business.
Ah, but they are operating as a non-profit business:
http://www.forbes.com/teams/nashville-predators/
http://www.tennessean.com/article/20120429/NEWS01/304290057/Profit-eludes-Nashville-Predators-despite-ice-success-public-money?nclick_check=1
If the fans get pissed off and buy $11 million less in tickets and merchandise, the Preds still come out $1 bucks ahead though.
they still have to spend the money and hit the cap floor
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Is Weber’s salary + bonus equal to his cap number?
If they match the offer will they only be exactly at the salary minimum once they have a full roster?
No offense to you because I enjoy your posts and opinions, but I remember earlier you saying to the other guy, nobody comes on here to read a TOME.
“They don’t hang Conference Championship Banners from the rafters here”
Carey Price
That was sarcasm. I enjoy most of Un Canadien errant’s posts, minus his penchant for sounding like Mr. Gauthier, and even when I find him to be a bit wordy or pedantic, still think he has a lot to offer. I like taking digs at UCe because he is a good sport and I am just trying to help him be an even better writer than he already is.
And my comment isn’t really that much of a tome. Chris and UCe easily out-tome me.
Glad you enjoy my comments. Thanks.
Sorry, but I have to chuckle. Weber is greedy for taking this deal? LOL.
Is Crosby greedy? Stamkos? Suter? Parise? Kolvalchuk? Nash? Vinny? Tom Cruise? Jennifer Lopez?
Let’s get real here. Beliveau, Richard and Roy all would have left Montreal to take the same kind of deal.
Beliveau refused to leave Quebec City until we opened the vault for him.
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“Of course, it wasn’t my long-term ambition to remain in Quebec City forever, making more and more money each year. As my second season with the Aces progressed, I sensed it was time to move on, to test myself on the next rung of the ladder.”
– Jean Beliveau, My Life in Hockey
He was making $20,000 a year, and for a short time, was earning more than Gordie Howe and the Rocket.
We’re not talking the 50′s, we’re talking the here and now. There may be an exception or two, but I would venture that 95% of today’s NHLers would do what Weber just did.
I’m not talking the ’50s and I don’t disagree with your characterization of NHL players, I’m merely providing context. I’m not the one who brought up an icon from the past to make a point.
He’s talkin’ 40′s here see?! And if you soggy whiskey wagons know what’s good, you’ll clam up or it’ll be fisticuffs and stars you’ll be seein’ next, hear?
Jay, is that the whiskey talkin’?
Fair enough, JB.
My only pont is that there is hardly any player (in any sport) from any time period that would not have gone after a deal like this.
If my son is Shea Weber, he’s taking 110M. Even if it means playing hockey with a Scientology sponsored cult NHL franchise located in Gilman Hot Springs.
NO! I’m at work!
Maybe a lil…
Yes.
Two-four, you’re right about hardly any player in any era would have refused a deal of this magnitude. But next time, please use somebody despicable like Bobby Clarke or Billy Smith to make your point when the subject is as crass as ridiculous salaries.
Le Gros Bill — he’s a saint for gawdsakes!!!
.
After careful debate, i would like to substitute Guy Lafleur’s name for that of Jean Beliveau.
Yesssss!
John, I love Beliveau and he is one of the greatest human beings alive
But lets be honest
That was written with the benefit of hindsight, if the Aces matched montreal’s offer for the third straight year he would have had something more to think about
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Remember too, its not a criticism of him… he was loyal to the Aces (his team) not the Habs (who he had only played a couple tryout games for) at that point in his career.
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True, Ben, he would have had more to think about, but with Jean, I prefer to believe the ‘more to think about’ would have included considerations of a selfless nature and not a case of merely viewing the decision through the prism of financial reward. I believe there are people in the world who are not ruled by mammon. I am willing to accept Jean’s explanation that more than material gain was behind his choosing to accept the Canadiens’ offer.
Edit: I tend to get sensitive about perceived slights of one’s idol when none was intended.
As I said John, Mr. Beliveau’s loyalty was with Quebec (his team) not Montreal (the suitor) at that point in his life.
He wasnt really a loyal Hab until after he signed the deal
It isn’t a slight to Jean Beliveau’s character to believe he may have returned to the Aces if they matched. In fact many would see that as a reaffirmation of his loyal nature
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I understand, Ben, his loyalty was to the Aces at the time and not to Montreal
but saying he refused to leave Quebec City until the Canadiens opened the vault seemed to reduce his motivation for leaving to mercenary instincts, when I like to think there was more to it than that. But I realize I’m being overly-protective of Jean’s reputation when he needs no protecting from the likes of me.
As Ive said many times, there is nothing disloyal about leaving for a megaoffer. Its just human nature.
Even moreso in the 50s when Beliveau had to work during the summer to supplement his hockey income and feed his family.
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Crosby and Stamkos didn’t leave their teams for more money. Neither did Nash.
Not sure what Tom Cruise and J Lo did.
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Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.
You missed my point.
It’s all about the money.
That also goes for Hamrlik, Gomez, Gionta, Cammy, Spacek, Cole, Price and Prust. Subban soon to follow.
Except it isn’t.
Money’s part of the equation obviously but a sellout (and I’m not saying Weber is one) is someone who places money above all other ethical and emotional considerations. None of the people you listed are sellouts.
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Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.
Sellout? What the hell does that mean?
Did Cole sell out Carolina for an extra mil a season? Spacek for an extra year? Gionta because no other team in the league would go to 5M? Hamrlik so he could get four years? Gomez after winning two Cups and being a team “leader”? Cammy after playing the Toronto/Montreal card?
Hockey players are entertainers. They are no different than Cruise, Lopez or American Idol. They have a defined career life span and it follows the money.
Let’s say Carey Price was able to be a total RFA. Along comes Columbus and says we’ll give you 9M a year for 12 years. Guess what? He’s gone.
So why did the lifetime Cardinal Albert Pujols leave St. Louis, because L.A. offered him term and money, (also had a sleazy agent who benefitted greatly from the contract to help his own business) ie. cuz of the money.
Montreal Canadiens forward Scott Gomez wins car at own celebrity golf event in Alaska.
I dare not comment.
I have zero respect for him. and winning a car at your own tournament, and keeping it?
shame on him!
MB better bury his lazy ass in Hamilton.
They sell insurance for those contests which Scott probably paid for.
On my care meter, this is 0.01
Really? I fail to see the logic, perhaps I am not savvy enough to understand.
You’re right, care meter is actually at 0 :p
For Trini and others
I’m more worried Nashville matches and Philly offer sheets Subban next than the Nashville offer sheeting Subban scenario
Not saying its a big possibility, its still unlikely IMO
But its more likely than Nashville
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IF Nashville matches, and then the F-ing Flyers offer-sheet P.K…
There better be four 1st round picks coming back.
Timmins armed with 8 1st-rounders? Sweet mother of gawd…..
I don’t think it would reach the 8.4 million per season level to be 4 first rounders.
It would probably be in the 1st 2nd 3rd category.
Maybe the 2 firsts, a 2nd, and a 3rd category.
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If they offered PK a ridiculous term like 8-10 years, it could get into the four 1st rounder territory. But I can’t see them offering PK anything the Habs couldn’t match. It just gets expensive.
yes possible if they go crazy on term, but I doubt they go nuts on him that way
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Of course Montreal could return the stab in the back by eventually trying to give offer sheets to Giroux and Couturier.
OK… I never thought of that. WOW!
I was just thinking the about the oilers/vanek/penner scenario
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Wonder how PK will look in yellow … maybe there’s a reason he hasn’t signed yet?
Loving the Habs since 1965
not happening for reasons we went over already
I’m more worried about orange
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I can’t get over the number of posters on here that think that because PK hasn’t signed yet, he’s probably going to be in a trade. I am sure that if someone was to be traded, he’d be easier to trade if the trading partner knew how much money he was making, and for how long. We went through this 2 years ago when Price was in the same situation, and he didn’t sign until early Sept. PK is a Hab, he’ll be a Hab for a long time, he’s going nowhere.
“They don’t hang Conference Championship Banners from the rafters here”
Carey Price
more to add in the big, nasty, partially psychotic Blue-liner saga:
what would it take to pry Braydon Coburn from the Flyers??
Not all, but I notice some posters, are referring to Weber as greedy for accepting the offer sheet. He has no loyalty to the organization that drafted him or their fans. What else was he supposed to do? I would bet the same posters saying this are the same ones that are quick to include Markov ( 14 years a Hab ) and Plex ( 10 years a Hab ) in their trade scenarios. It has to go both ways with the loyalty thing. I am one who appreciates what these 2 have done for our organization, and am not looking to throw them to the curb.
“They don’t hang Conference Championship Banners from the rafters here”
Carey Price
Every single one of those posters would leave their job if you offered them 110 million to do so
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Hear hear.
The simple fact is that Shea Weber got drafted by a team that never managed to convince him to stay and sign a long-term contract. He used his rights as a restricted free agent to sign an offer sheet with a team he wanted to play for.
Tampa Bay managed to hang on to Vincent Lecavalier and Martin St-Louis and now Steven Stamkos, Phoenix has Shane Doan who never wants to leave…. Somehow Nashville didn’t do its job with Ryan Suter and now Shea Weber.
In fairness, they sure tried. They signed Rinne. They went all-in this year and last trading draft picks for rentals. It just didn’t work out for them.
–
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.
You’re right that they did. I should probably have written that Nashville just didn’t get the job done, instead of “didn’t do it’s job”.
I wonder how Sergei Kostitsyn would look in a Nordiques sweater…….
Sullen and uninterested.
What are the odds next year goes to a lock-out because of the Weber offer sheet?
If Nashville takes the picks, they’ll have 2 balls in the draft lottery.
Just food for thought.
the trading back the 4 first rounders to Philly for something better is EXACTLY how this will play out.
Everyone will save face with that trade.
Nashville will get 2 excellent young NHL roster players and then 2 prospects.
I think your right. Cobourn and who?
Couturier, Coburn, and 2 firsts would be a good deal in my opinion.
Couturier was at the center of initial trade negotiations before this all happened
@RAFord77
http://bleublancetrouge.ca/
and did Philly refuse to move him? I like Couturier, but I think that’s a pretty reasonable asking price for arguably the best dman in the game.
I dont see that happening Ed. Either Nashville matches or they take the 4 1st rnds and resourcefully look around the NHL for trades. For one you keep all those 1st rnds until next year so that regardless of where you end up in the lottery you have the assets to trade up for McKinnon.
I don’t think anyone is going to be able to afford to trade up for McKinnon or Jones next year.
Listening to Webers agent Bousquet. Weber sure doesn’t want to stay in Nashville. Went to 5 teams. Philly is where he wants to be. If Suter stays so would Weber.
if the preds match he has no choice
cant even request a trade
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On Stevens vs Gonchar
Conn Smythe Trophy
2 time NHL first Allstar team (meaning he was a top 2 dman in the league)
3 time NHL 2nd allstar team (meaning he was a top 4 dman in the league)
3 time Norris Finalist (two 2nd place finishes, 1 third)
vs
2 time 2nd allstar team
0 Norris nominations.
I’ll take Scott Stevens, thank you very much.
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Don’t forget Stevens’ 3 Cups to Gonchar’s 1
true but the argument could be those are team awards. I think it helps stevens but didnt want to leave that argument out there
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preach!
I would take Stevens too. But it isn’t by the landslide that people make it out to be.
They are hard to compare offensively because of their eras. Stevens racked up huge point totals in the 1980′s when points were easy to come by. But look how his point total plummeted after 1993-94.
Age 18-30: 150 goals 672 points 911 games
Age 31-35: 21 goals 127 points 365 games
When he should have been in his prime, his goal production suddenly dropped to about 1/3 of what it had been in the run-and-gun era and his point production dropped to about half of what it had been. Part of that was the stifling defensive system of the Devils, part of it was an increased focus by Stevens on becoming a dominant defensive defenceman and part of it was simply the NHL itself. The league saw an average of about 7.5 goals per game (both teams) from 1982-83 to 1992-93, which then dropped sharply to about 6 goals per game from 1993-94 to 1996-97 (around the time that Gonchar made his debut). By the time Gonchar became a regular, the NHL had fully entered the dead-puck era of 1997-98 to the lockout, where the average goals per game total had plummeted down to about 5.3 goals per game.
If you adjust the scoring for the era, Gonchar’s point total becomes very impressive, arguably Hall of Fame impressive. This is why I think he was so seriously underrated. He finished second to one of the top defencemen to ever play the game (Lidstrom) over a decade.
Stevens wasn’t in the same class as the dominant offensive defencemen of his first decade in the league (Bourque, MacInnis, Leetch, Housley, Coffey, Suter).
Stevens gets the nod for me for two reasons: he never had a “minus” season in his entire 22 year career. That is ludicrous.
Secondly, Stevens’ 1993-94 seasons was one of the best seasons every posted by a defenceman. He was just absolutely and utterly dominant that year…nobody was even close to his all-around game.
I didnt look at their point totals, I looked at the number of times during their careers they were considered to be top defencemen in the NHL vs their peers
Norris voting Stevens
Stevens
84-85: 5th
86-87: 7th
87-88: 2nd
88-89: 10th
90-91: 7th
91-92: 4th
93-94: 2nd
96-97: 5th
97-98: 4th
98-99: 6th
00-01: 3rd
vs
Gonchar
99-00: 5th
00-01: 6th
01-02: 4th
02-03: 4th
03-04: 9th
06-07: 7th
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When Lidstrom gets nominated for a Hart Trophy, I’ll take trophy voting into account.
The Professional Hockey Writers’ Association votes on both those awards, and they completely wet the bed by never nominating Lidstrom. I question their judgement in other awards based on that.
Stevens was better. But even that list shows that there wasn’t a huge difference between them. Stevens had a couple of seasons where he spiked to the top based on huge offensive seasons. Gonchar led the league in points twice and was second twice. Yet he never got higher than 4th in Norris balloting?
In 2007-08, Gonchar finished:
14th in goals
2nd in points
20th in +/-
8th in ice time
2nd in PP ice time
21st in SH ice time
Gonchar did everything for the Penguins, a team that went to the Stanley Cup finals. And he didn’t even warrant a top-10 placement?
EDIT: I realize that you omitted that year by accident…Gonchar actually did finish 4th in 2007-08, behind Lidstrom, PHANEUF (!!!???!!!) and Chara. That’s a great example…Gonchar was better than Phaneuf in almost every metric and was playing for a better team, yet the writers went for the “sexy” pick in Phaneuf.
A couple of nice comparables in terms of Norris Trophy voting to Gonchar:
Larry Murphy
80-81: 7th
86-87: 3rd
91-92: 5th
92-93: 3rd
94-95: 4th
97-98: 6th
98-99: 11th
Serge Savard
72-73: 6th
74-75: 5th
75-76: 5th
76-77: 5th
77-78: 8th
78-79: 4th
Well Poile, Nashville, I tried. You’re on your own. I dont know what you do to keep hockey alive there now. I just wanted to see Carrie Underwood sitting in the front row or singing the anthem one day.
Who’s running the show in Philly? Kevin Lowe?
Horrible contract. Horrible negotiation tactics. Just plain horrible for hockey. I’ve also lost a bit of respect for Shea Weber for accepting this.
It’s yet another ridiculous, front loaded contract with bonuses coming out the wazoo. This is a real crappy way to force someone into a trade with a time limit. This is gonna cause a bit of a stir in the free agent and trade market as well. Thanx a bunch Holmgren!!!
I guess Bergevin had good reason to file for arbitration with Carey after all. Time to file with Subban before someone gets anymore bright ideas.
@RAFord77
bleublancetrouge.ca
All I can say is, I have no respect for Weber, the greedy bastard! This kind of a deal could hamstring the Flyers is things don’t work out. And I have zero respect for the Flyers….what a lousy thing to do to the Preds and hockey as a whole!! Owners, players….no diff. They’re all vultures. Since when is any half-educated hockey player worth more han an ER RN????? What’s wrong with our value system? Gee, wouldn’t it be irony if Weber suffered a Pacoretty injury, ending his career, and Philly was left holding the bag? It would serve them right! Though no one wants to see that kind of thing happen….
Get 20,000 people to pay an average of 100 bucks for tickets, sell hot dogs and beer, and sell a massive tv contract to get people watch an RN at work, and maybe they can make as much as a hockey player.
Of course its not just athletes.
What about rock stars, and movie stars. Are they greedy bastards too?
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It seems now that Edmonton and Columbus will have company in the race for the #1 overall section in the 2013 draft…
_____________________________________________________________
“How would you like a job where when you made a mistake, a big red light goes on and 18,000 people boo?” -Jacques Plante
Toronto?
I think this is just plain old fashioned bad for hockey.
Happened before! Read Commandants excellent reasearch.If Preds feel he is the future franchise guy,money will be found .IMO.
All these long term contracts will make the “Free Agency Frenzy” on TSN in a few years more boring then it is now… the HORROR….
_____________________________________________________________
“How would you like a job where when you made a mistake, a big red light goes on and 18,000 people boo?” -Jacques Plante
But it will spice up the trade deadline day I think.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Preds match the offer. Hola!
I wouldn’t be surprised either. Nor would I be surprised if he rejects it. Can he do that? I think so and it wouldn’t be a shock.
He can’t.
If the Preds match, he’s a Pred for at least 1 calendar year, end of story.
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I get it. Thanks. I wasn’t sure.
OK Here goes! I need help on this post. But if you cant answer in the spirit of a discussion please move on.
A)I was listening to Mitch Melnick interview Dreger re the Weber deal. They seemed to hint that a trade between the two teams is still an option. I thought it was either Nashville matches or they lose Weber????
B)On that same show both Dreger and Melnick agreed that the ‘offer sheet’ tool should be more widely used by NHL GM’s … it is after all a tool. I agree. They brought up P.K.’s name.
Preamble: Nashville doesnt match.. either because they can’t afford it or because of the ‘sour taste’ aspect of an the ‘broken’ relationship between Weber and Nashville.. and thus the ‘fan base’. He doesnt want to be here ..we dont want him we’ll take the picks.
What does Nashville need? They need to capitalize on the situation. They need to keep their fans’ interest (awakened by this news) glued to developments in the coming weeks. They need to foster optimism and enthusiasm.
I say they go out and tender a ‘marquee type RFA’ who would arouse interest an offer sheet. Now I am told that Nashville does not have their 2 and 3rd rnd picks. I am assuming they have their OWN next 2 first rnd picks. If they dont this becomes moot.. would be too hard to swing.
I also did research re the RFA compensation. Teams can REACQUIRE their draft picks and use them as compensation. Also if you owe 4 picks you DO NOT NEED TO MEET that obligation all in the next two years..it’s complicated but….
See where I am heading… no!
Well if I were Poile, I tender P.K Subban one of the following offers for say 5-7 yrs
lower offer if P.K accepts $6,728,/yr :compensation 1st round pick, 2nd, 3rd
higher offer if they need to $7mill: compensation Two 1st Round Picks, 2nd, 3rd..(** maybe not doable)).
Suddenly P.K is making least 6.728 mill/yr for say 6 yrs. That’s huge money.
I have already detailed why this will be a great PR move by Nashville and while they wont be replacing Weber they would be able to sell P.K’s style etc to their fans and he is in fact a good rising ‘option’.
Nashville will have to reacquire their 2nd rnd pick or use the 2nd rnd pick of 2014. Fly in the ointment IS that Habs has it I think. But hey if Mtl sees no way out then they would benefit from trading it back. Again I cant find the status of all of Nashville’s ‘designated picks. 2 1ST-2ND-3RD.
Mtl will match you say. If I were Poile I would be thinking who cares. Let them.. heck they will have that same sour taste .. And as for P.K Subban… he gains at least a 6.5 millcontract which he wouldn’t have had under any other circumstances.
Anyone with info re Nashville’s picks and full understanding of the ‘grace period’ to fulfill pick obligations.
Why are you shopping PK? And he’s not worth that much…not yet, anyhow.
I am not. I am basically agreeing with Melnick/Dreger… make use of the RFA Offer tool more. Nashville could do it for any player.. but given the circumstances (which I detailed before) I dont see any player available by RFA today better that Subban who would have a ‘marquee value’ way above his real hockey worth.
1.Montreal matches, Nashville gain nothing.
2. Montreal refuse to match, Nashville are stuck severely overpaying PK Subban, and they lose picks to boot.
It’s the old lose/lose.
–
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.
Over pay hockey wise (but that term is relative given the salaries being bandied about) but I dont think they overpay image wise.
re The trade
Nashville would decline to match, and get 4 firsts.
Nashville would then trade the 4 firsts back to Philly for some other package.
Happened with Shane Corson (Edmonton to St. Louis) and Chris Gratton (Tampa to Philly) before.
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That’s right…
Is it possible that’s why the Preds’ camp is quiet?
Not much of a response so far.
The Nashville owner has probably been meeting all day with his bankers.
LOL!
Thanks… so Weber still stays a Flyer. Dont see that trade being of any value to Nashville. I dont know the public perception of the team from here in Ottawa .. but they need to do something galvanizing. Trading 4 1st rnd picks back AINT.
Depends what you get back of course.
Would both Schenns plus Voracek, look better than four first rounders? Granted its not as good as Weber.
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I think Philly would rather take their chances with the 4 first-rounders than giving that much up.
commandant – your trade options are way off the mark (here and above). If I’m Philly, I’m giving up the four 1st rounders. Besides, Nashville has very little leverage in this deal. It’s not like they are likely to match the offer.
i wouldnt count out nashville matching
didnt they offer 13 years over 90 million front loaded for Suter
That must’ve been assuming theyd get Weber too
Now they only have one of the two guys to sign
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On the PK scenario
1) The 2nd would need to be in 2013. Due to the nature of the two first round picks, the pick that slides to the second year is the second first round pick.
2) Nashville’s offer sheet is deemed illegal before they can even make it because they must reacquire the picks before they can make the offer sheet. You must own the necessary picks before the league approves your offer sheet. Montreal owning the 2nd round pick makes this extremely unlikely. Montreal isn’t going to trade Nashville a pick, so that Nashville can try to poach PK, without some kind of serious return. They would just trade for PK instead (if Montreal was willing to give him up).
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I have follow up question but I have bugged you enough. If it cant be done so be it.
Go ahead. Though i’m leaving the office now and driving home, so don’t expect an answer for a bit.
But I will try to get you one.
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PK would have to be advised by his agent to sign any offer sheet presented to him. To the Habs, this is a betrayal of good bargaining faith between PK and themselves. The biggest reason this “tool” isn’t used often because it has to be a disgruntled player who no longer wants to live and work in Montreal. PK and his agent know full well they are going to be well compensated during PK’s career here in Montreal. He knows he is popular here (he would be anywhere he plays because he has that charisma) and loves the fact that the Habs are #1 in Montreal.
If any team tried to sign PK and he listened to the offer and actually signed, I’d be very surprised. I believe he is going to sign a 2 to 3 season deal not unlike Price’s last contract before cashing in big time if he continues to perform as he can and will.
Sorry Cal… I know I am being cynical but I totally disagree. Dont think that sentimentality will play a role. But you used the word “charisma” which I a trying to sell Poile on. LOL!
It’s all MOOT though cause Mtl’s got Nashville’s 2013 2nd rnd, which is needed.
IMHO, blockbuster deal inc. Nsh signs SW and trades him to MTL.
They can’t trade him if they match the offer.
Not for 1 full year.
During that 1 full year, they pay him 27 million dollars.
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Cal, Sherri and Hab thanksl Ijust read your comments. See you all at the Summit.
They Call Me Shane
“They never asked to be Canadiens, they were Chosen.”
Shane Oliver
Twitter @Sholi2000
http://www.Sholi2000.com
Custom Sports Figures
I think the Preds are looking at a substantial loss of credibility and support from their fans here.
very similar to 1994 Expos.
The fans could decide that the league rules don’t work, the team can not afford to keep their stars, and then the fans could lose interest and stop caring.
Someone once said he didn’t mind the booing from the fans because at least it showed they still cared.
That’s why I don’t think the Predators can look at this as a straight value proposition, the four first-rounders won’t replace the blow to the psyche of the fanbase.
Then again, the Flyers know they can afford to pay $26M to a locked out player, and that the Predators can’t.
The other issue to consider is that IMO, this puts Bettman in a delicate position. Especially during the contract negotiations.
He’s been pushing the hockey-in-the-desert concept for a while, and is for some reason determined to make it work.
If he sees the demise of the team as a result of this contract, he might just veto it.
If he vetos it, the NHLPA will file a grievance so fast it will make his head spin.
After re-writing the rules on Kovalchuk (rules that were obeyed on Weber)… and then approving Suter and Parise, Bettman has no leg to stand on with a veto here. He’ll get killed in court.
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I think there’s a big difference here, Ben.
Given the nature of the offer…it’s ridiculously front-loaded.
Having to require Nashville to pay $26 million in the first year in bonuses is ridiculous.
Yes, it’s a shrewd move by Holmgren, probably out of frustration with Nashville in the first place.
But that type of contract shows that there are the Yankees of hockey, and the Expos.
And if Bettman doesn’t act on it, Nashville will be in trouble.
Parise and Suter are both getting over 20 million in the first calendar year of their deals.
Neither have been nominated for an award as presitigious as the Norris, something Weber has done twice.
Weber is also RFA, necessitating the overpay for reasons of discouraging the Preds.
Pretty easy to justify an extra 30% to Weber.
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There’s a whole lot of wheeler dealin’ going on.
Richard R
Price is an oyster. Unfortunately not all oysters produce pearls.
Not if they investigate the option I posted above. I wont repeat all the reasons why this is a dynamically positive move they should explore. I posted the reasons earler in the afternoon.
I don’t blame Weber. other players are getting big contracts and they’re no better than him. IMO Weber is probably the best D-man in the league. I say get the most you can get and if you don’t know how. talk to Gomez. He’s got a big contract to attend games.
I agree! And I think Poile should say to hell with “gentlemen agreements” I have my fan base to win back/keep.
IMO take the picks. He has no interest in staying in Nashville and 4 first rounds is a pretty good offer. I think Pekka Rinne has a sinking feeling in his stomach. A lot of pucks coming his way this year..
_____________________________________________________________
“How would you like a job where when you made a mistake, a big red light goes on and 18,000 people boo?” -Jacques Plante
Did Joe Sakic have no interest in staying in Colorado when he signed with the Rangers? Did it make a difference?
Weber went for the cash grab. Everyone knows this is the last chance for one of these crazy front loaded contracts, so he took it from whoever would give it to him when Nashville wouldnt.
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It may not have proven that Sakic was dead set on seeing if the grass was greener but it certainly proved that he was willing to find out.
Many have spoken of loyalty today. There are rare instances where loyalty applies. Weber and Sakic aren’t among those instances.
You want to talk loyalty, I got to say Tom you are loyal to this site. You have been on here all day. I have a feeling you are lobbying for Boone’s job.
Its not loyalty or disloyalty. Its wanting to get paid.
I can’t blame Weber for that.
99% of the people on this site would do the same thing in Weber’s shoes, take the money.
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100% would. Even Timo.
Mr. Biter
No Guts No Glory
Given me Sakic instead of Weber and I’d match it in a second. I don’t think we are comparing the same caliber of player here.
Let the man go to the goaltender graveyard ( Not Toronto, the other one) and let them play 82 games plus a first round exit…
_____________________________________________________________
“How would you like a job where when you made a mistake, a big red light goes on and 18,000 people boo?” -Jacques Plante
The 4 first rounds are not an offer.
It’s a cost to pay, listed in the CBA. It’s scaled based on the amount offered.
A lesser offer, for example, would have meant giving up a couple of second rounders, or a first and a second, and so on.
I still think that’s pretty good compensation given the circumstances, you could get almost two Phil Kessel for those 4 first round picks
_____________________________________________________________
“How would you like a job where when you made a mistake, a big red light goes on and 18,000 people boo?” -Jacques Plante
Go back to the previous page and read Chris’ perspective on why 4 first-round draft picks are poor compensation, and I agree.
The statistical probability of landing one, let alone two top tier players is very remote.
If Philly continually drafted in the top-10, then I might give you one at least.
But they’re always strong enough to draft no lower than 20th. The elite prospects are mostly gone by then.
I tried to post my comments on the Shea Weber offer sheet, but somehow it’s not showing up on here. If you’re interested follow the link below.
http://relentlessineptitude.blogspot.ca/2012/07/the-flyers-sign-shea-weber-to-offer.html
———————————————————————–
June 22: Alex Galchenyuk [x]
June 23:
Stefan Matteau, Mike Matheson, Martin Frk, Brandon WhitneyJune
2429: Travis Moen [x]June
2627:Mathieu DarcheJune 26: Ryan White
June 30: Alexei Emelin
July 1:
P.A. Parenteau, Taylor PyattJuly 3:
Shane O’BrienJuly
52: Carey Price [x]July 6: Lars Eller
July 9: P.K. Subban
Sept. 15: Training camps open
Oct. 11: Puck drop, Canadiens vs. Senators
I tried the same, Norm and it didn’t show mine either. Funny…
How’s life treating you these days? Anything to add to that great profile the Gazette had on you? Are you jumping tall buildings in a single bound yet?
When I tried to post again, I got a message telling me: “It looks like you’ve already said that.” Apparently not, but whatever.
Things are good, summer started late in Whistler, like usual, but now we’re getting dry scorchers everyday. Great weather, much better than the humid days of summer in Montréal. Now if only we could import the Jazz Festival here, and proper smoked meat…
I’ll give you that.
But I think I’d rather take your scenery thanks.
The scenery at the Jazz Festival ain’t bad at all.
I can always head to Rainbow Beach, but as I explain to my friends, I don’t really want to be Old Creepy Dude there. I long for the days when I was Age-Appropriate Creepy Dude.
It’s less and less a jazz festival and becoming more like a world music festival.
Richard R
Price is an oyster. Unfortunately not all oysters produce pearls.
This place is for comments not tomes. You should know by now that they’ve put a character limit on your posts and have many of them flagged as spam. I wonder how long until you get approached by some pretentious blog asking you to be one of their many writers so that you can become a Twitter wannabe and show up here every once in a while to tell us how sought after you are and how you were scouted and how they asked you and how people all over the Internets think you’re all that.
Sorry. Confused you with Berkshiter.
One thing for certain. The Internet has proven that the whole million monkeys with typewriters producing the works of Shakespeare thing is so very, very wrong.
Ooh-ooh-ooh-ooh.
I think that’s the funniest post I’ve ever read from you. Great stuff!
Hey man, don’t mock Andrew Berkshire, he was mentioned by Jay Feaster on TV. I believe he referred to him as a “blogger in the basement in his underwear”
Respek
you said underwear!
HH, at the Summit, Bettman willing, bring your laptop, and after you’ve bought me that beer you owe me, I’ll show you how to use the PgUp and PgDn keys, they work like gangbusters.
I’ve already been approached by Bleacher Report to write for them. Every time I make a mistake and follow a link to their site, there it is, right at the top of the page, an invite to join their legion of writers and cover the Chargers.
Also, I get a lot of mail telling me I’m pre-approved for an assortment of credit cards.
“Berkshiter”, LMFAO!!
Yes, good stuff.
Again, problems with statistics and probability at HIO on this fine day.
It’s not merely a million monkeys with typewriters producing the works of Shakespeare, you have to include the concept of infinite time. The internet has been around for only a year or two, not enough time.
And gauging from this snippet from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem , we at HIO are a little bit more advanced than the monkeys.
In 2003, lecturers and students from the University of Plymouth MediaLab Arts course used a £2,000 grant from the Arts Council to study the literary output of real monkeys. They left a computer keyboard in the enclosure of six Celebes Crested Macaques in Paignton Zoo in Devon in England for a month, with a radio link to broadcast the results on a website.
Not only did the monkeys produce nothing but five pages consisting largely of the letter S, the lead male began by bashing the keyboard with a stone, and the monkeys continued by urinating and defecating on it. Phillips said that the artist-funded project was primarily performance art, and they had learned “an awful lot” from it. He concluded that monkeys “are not random generators. They’re more complex than that. … They were quite interested in the screen, and they saw that when they typed a letter, something happened. There was a level of intention there.”