Eighth HI/O summit planned for Nov. 29th

The upcoming hockey season might not be top of mind for every Habs fan in mid-July. But Ian Cobb is looking ahead to late fall–Saturday, Nov. 29th to be precise.

That’s the date of the upcoming Hockey Inside/Out summit being organized once again this year by Cobb, an HI/O member. The annual summit draws fans from far and wide who follow the team on The Gazette’s hockeyinsideout.com.

It’s the eighth summit since the website was launched in 2006. (It wasn’t held during the lockout-shortened 2012-13 season.) Plans for this year’s summit include attending the Buffalo Sabres-Canadiens game on Nov. 29th at the Bell Centre.The game will mark the return of former Canadiens’ captain Brian Gionta and defenceman Josh Gorges to the Bell Centre.

On the Friday evening at the meet-and-greet gathering people can watch the first game of the home-and-home series with the Sabres, Cobb said. Saturday’s agenda includes a pregame meal and raffle to benefit the Montreal Canadiens Children’s Foundation.

Close to 200 members of the HI/O community attended last year’s summit.

“Each and every year it’s grown,” Cobb said, adding “really tight bonds have developed through the site.”

For more details about the event, people can visit Cobb’s summit Facebook page by clicking here or by email at: cobbiangrant@yahoo.ca

(File photo: John Mahoney/The Gazette)

Habs’ Prust gears up for charity golf event by, Dave Stubbs


  1. HardHabits says:

    Big shout out to Ian Cobb. Much gratitude and appreciation to you good sir for organizing this yearly event. You rock.

  2. shiram says:

    Igor Eronko @IgorEronko · 22h

    #KHL’s salary cap for next season set at $32 mln, down from $40 mln, but there’re 4 players whose salaries won’t count against the cap (1/2)
    Igor Eronko ‏@IgorEronko

    Those are: Kovalchuk, Radulov, S.Kostitsyn and Burmistrov. They’ll be exceptions as a ‘particularly valuable’ for the league (2/2)

    Who would have thought when he left MTL that the KHL would make special allowance towards Sergei Kostitsyn, as a particularly valuable player??

  3. John Q Public says:

    Dave Stubbs ‏
    Column coming on @BrandonPrust8: “Fans in #Habs nation might be concerned about who our next captain will be but guys in the room aren’t”

    Second time a player that I know of said it just doesn’t matter.

  4. Ian Cobb says:

    I am asking PK’s Mom and Dad to join us at this year’s SUMMIT.

    Summit game tickets, News, Pictures and comments

  5. hansolo says:

    Burli’s referencing the Flyers’ blog led me to this other article about striking a balance between playing your vets and your kids. It seems MT isn’t the only one who consistently plays vets over the kids. Problems arise when the kids are no longer waiver-exempt, yet you don’t quite know what they can do for you because you haven’t played them enough.


  6. habsguru says:

    while browsing the NHL section on TSN, I just noticed Steve Spott was named assistant coach in TO. isn’t he the clown that used Nathan McKinnon as a fourth line checker in the world juniors? if so, match made in heaven.


      First did Spott win the world juniors? if he did than it worked.
      I would use Crosby as a 4th liner if it worked, but I wouldn’t be stupid enough to try it again if it didn’t work.

  7. Mattyleg says:

    That is a damn good photo up there, I have to say…

    —Hope Springs Eternal—

  8. GMan says:

    My only superpower is to be a gargantuan pain in the backside. 🙂

  9. UKRAINIANhab says:

    Trust me this Andlaur guy we speak of is loaded!

    His son goes to the school I teach 1st semester at, while I am in Canada. I have taught him (2nd year European studies). He is a nice kid…however, he does drive a spider in everyday…

    So therefore, Mr. Andlaur must have quite a share in the Canadiens. He will have a say whether to stay in Hamilton or move to Laval.

  10. mdp2011 says:

    Thanks to everyone who replied with clarification on the Bulldogs ownership group below.
    For Shiram, I think the Habs will have their AHL team in Laval, but considering they haven’t broken ground yet, that is still at least 4-5 years away in my opinion.

  11. DipsyDoodler says:

    Speaking of superpowers, I think it is in Love in the Time of Cholera (but could be 100 Years of Solitude) that there is a male character who has the ability to know immediately which women would be willing to go to bed with him.

    That would add a certain efficiency to one’s life decisions.

    Moving. Forward.

  12. HabinBurlington says:

    Very curious scenario the Flyers have ahead of the them with the Salary Cap and the specifics of how they use LTIR for Pronger. Here is a good read detailing it.


    Hey Frontenac, there is the remote chance the Flyers may need to clear some cap space prior to opening day, therefore a chance that a Jay Rosehill goes on waivers…. perhaps MB sees with various teams scrambling to reach Salary Cap that quality players (yes including Rosehill) could be available on waivers day before season opens.

  13. Ian Cobb says:

    People asking where to send money orders! For Summit tickets.

    Send today to Ian Cobb at 63 Village Dr. Belleville Ont. K8P 4K2.
    With a self addressed stamped (Canadian stamp) envelope!!!

    Summit game tickets, News, Pictures and comments

  14. shiram says:

    I think it was UCE that posted a recap of an interview with Martin Lapointe, in it the question of Nygren moving back to Europe was brought up, and the context of living in Hamilton was also brought up.

    It’s something I’ve touched on before, but I can’t help but think that the Place Bell arena in Montreal will be used to host an AHL team.
    I know the AHL is greatly dis-balanced as it relates to Eastern and Western team, but moving the Habs farm would not upset that balance.

    I don’t know how long the lease is signed in Hamilton for the Bulldogs either.
    But it seems weird to me to build a 120 millions $ arena, with 10k capacity, including 2 other rinks, and not have a purpose for it.

    Sure there can be shows there, but without a constant and permanent fixture there, could they be profitable?

    It would make player transfer much easier, and could simplify movement of your player staff too.

    I’m surprised at how little we hear about this.

    • mdp2011 says:

      Regarding the Bulldogs, does anyone know what the arrangement with the Habs is? Everyone assumes it will be the Hamilton Bulldogs that move to Laval if and when the arena is built, but could it be possible the Habs end their affiliation with Hamilton and and sign an agreement with a different AHL team that would play in Laval? Do the Habs or Geoff Molson own the Bulldogs? I don’t think they do, but I could be wrong.

      • shiram says:

        Michael Andlauer is the Bulldogs owner, but I’m not sure if Molson doen’t own part of the team.

      • HabinBurlington says:

        Michael Andlauer owns the Bulldogs and is a minority owner in the Habs. Appears he and Geoff Molson have a very good relationship, friends/business partners. Andlauer is a huge hockey fan. I don’t think Molson pulls any punches on Andlauer and dumps affiliation over night to move to Laval.

        Here is the wiki link, gives a decent backdrop to how they came about as Habs farm team, and how Andlauer worked closely with the Habs to have this happen. Andlauer now appears to be the 100% owner.

      • Kooch7800 says:

        I believe there was just an extension signed but it was only three years and it was signed last year. The bulldogs will stay in Hamilton but they may change affiliations with another NHL club.

        In the past they used to share it with Edmonton and I remember Dallas also having players on the bulldogs as well.

      • DipsyDoodler says:

        I thought you were going to say:

        “Everyone assumes it will be the Hamilton Bulldogs that move to Laval … but could it be possible the Habs move to Hamilton?”

        Moving. Forward.

      • Chris says:

        This is the far more likely scenario…the Bulldogs are not going anywhere. Hamilton is a decent hockey town with no NHL team. If Montreal ends its partnership with Hamilton, some other team will grab them as an affiliate.

        Right now, the Bulldogs’ ownership group is a little frustrated with the Canadiens for the lack of quality the past 2-3 years. But that will turn around with the upcoming influx of talented forwards and a management group in Montreal that is more patient, allowing those players to stay in the AHL a bit longer to ensure that they are ready. That should lead to better teams in Hamilton.

        • DipsyDoodler says:

          If I’m the Montreal Canadiens I care about the Bulldog’s ownership group’s frustrations about as much as I care about the weather report for the Aleutian Islands.

          They are the farm team. They are there to develop our players. Nothing else.

          Moving. Forward.

          • Kooch7800 says:

            I am sure that they do care a bit. It is also good to give your players a chance for a playoff run in the AHL so they can get more experience etc.

            The product they have put on the ice they last couple years has been really poor actually. It is quite a feet that they have still stayed in the middle of the pack in attendance

          • Chris says:

            That is Montreal’s investment in the Bulldogs. The fans going to Bulldogs games, i.e., the ones that keep the franchise afloat, DO actually care whether the team on the ice is a good one.

            More importantly, having players develop in a positive environment is important as well. For goal-scoring wingers, you need some playmakers, and vice versa.

            When you don’t have those players to play with, the development of the few prospects you do have can be stunted. I think this is part of what happened to Leblanc…the forwards in Hamilton the past couple of years were not a good match for him. He is a two-way playmaker, but the Bulldogs had no goalscorers for him to feed. There were undoubtedly other issues, but the overall lack of quality among Montreal’s forward prospects in Hamilton was depressing.

    • Kooch7800 says:

      I think it is more about money than anything. Hamilton is not that bad of a city but he was going to make more money in Europe and probably had an easier schedule with less bus travel.

      It is more about the league than the City of Hamilton. I think those same issues will arise no matter where the AHL team is

  15. ClutchNGrab says:

    I just read an article about the new arena in Quebec City.

    Question, if Quebec City is granted a team, will that mean that all Canadians living east of a certain point between Montreal and Quebec City will have to get the NHL Center Ice package in order to watch the Habs locally televised games?

    If that’s the case I wonder how that transition will go.

    • Chris says:

      Hard to say…the way that Ontario was partitioned for regional markets wasn’t very helpful to Ottawa, so I suspect that Quebec City would struggle to get much of Montreal’s regional market re-allocated.

  16. shiram says:

    Gallagher to look for a new place in Montreal.


    Gorges was a good guy to have around the team.

    • Kooch7800 says:

      He was, I agree. He was a hab through and through and it showed by him not going to Toronto.

      Sadly, it was his contract that did him in. almost a 4 mill cap hit for what he brought on the ice would be hard to justify if he was a 5th or 6th D man who could fill in top 4 when needed.

      He isn’t as bad as people made him out to be but he was about 1.5 mill more per year than he should have been

      • shiram says:

        He is a great guy, I’ve nothing but respect for him.
        I think he’ll do great in Buffalo, with a bunch of young players.

        • Kooch7800 says:

          I think Buffalo has actually made some really smart moves this off season. Adding Gio and Gorges was brilliant with their young players. They also go Moulson at a decent price. Their rebuild will be much faster than Toronto’s. I still think they may struggle this year but they will get better quick.

          Getting rid of Miller was smart. He isn’t the goalie he once was. I was shocked that Van City target him instead of Hiller. Hiller is a better goalie in my eyes and is still young and considerably cheaper

    • ClutchNGrab says:

      Josh Gorges on the picture in the article:

      @Dave_Stubbs @BGALLY17 wow taking a shirtless selfie! I must have been away cause that wouldn’t be allowed! #notmyproblemanymore

    • GrimJim says:

      Why doesn’t Gally just buy Gorges house?


      Nice story.

  17. Old Bald Bird says:

    DGBrown hilites the best and worst FA signings each year for the past decade. Yes, Gomez and Parenteau made the list.


  18. HabinBurlington says:

    And in other Buffalo news, apparently Claude Lemieux’s son Brendan came as advertised and played the role of Sh*t Disturber at Buffalo’s development camp scrimmage.


  19. twilighthours says:


    I’m off to the Vermont 100 today. My buddy is attempting it, and I’m pacing the last 30 miles of his run. Should be a great time and event.

  20. HabinBurlington says:

    Wonder how this kid will turn out, uber talent, excellent size. I keep waiting to read that the Avalanche have made a trade with Buffalo and Patrick Roy turns Grigorenko into a star.


  21. frontenac1 says:

    Watching highlight reels until tomorrow”s British Open starts. Here”s some Connor Crisp. The Future is bright amigos.

  22. BriPro says:

    Back on the Subban train for a minute, a detailed account of PK’s first 5 years in the NHL, as per RDS:

    In those five seasons, he’s collected a total of $8.375MM. Given his talent, I would consider that as more than reasonable (by pro athletes standards, not the common person living on a modest income….but I digress).

    2009-2010-$875,000- 77-18-35-53 (Hamilton) and 2-0-2-2 (+1) (Montréal)
    2010-2011- $875,000- 77-14-24-38 (-8) (Montréal)
    2011-2012- $875,000- 81-7-29-36 (+9) (Montréal)
    2012-2013- $2,000,000- 42-11-27-38 (+12) (Montréal)
    2013-2014- $3,750,000- 82-10-43-53 (-4) (Montréal)

    TOTAL- $8,375,000-284-42-125-167 (+10) (Montréal)

    2013-2014 – 5-9-14 (+1) 17 games
    Overall 10-20-30 (0) 43 games

    2010-2011 – First all-star team
    2012-13 – Norris Trophy winner

    They go on to compare various other stars and their current contracts.

    Weber – $110MM for 14 years in 2012
    Ovechkin – $124MM for 13 years in 2008
    Crosby – $104MM for 12 years in 2013
    Parise and Suter – $98MM for 13 years in 2012

    (this next one stands out for me as a “bargain”….)
    Letang – $58MM for 8 years in 2014
    (and finally Campbell, for which I agree with the writer that PK will surpass – or should)
    Brian Campbell $57MM for 8 years in 2008

    I won’t ask for salary speculations or expectations. It’s already been beaten to death.

    All I know is that he’s a franchise player, who would put seats in the stands if they weren’t already sold out for however long it’s been now.

    • krob1000 says:

      I am comfortable in Subban contract denial….everything feels right when I am here….what contract?

    • Loop_Garoo says:

      I agree, great value for the first few years, and personally I have no problem with paying him huge money now. He is one the biggest stars in the league and along with Price and Gallagher is starting to give the habs the swagger and identity that we have been missing for so long. Time to lock him up 8 or 9 million a year now is way too much for the first year or two in relation to the cap, but will be a bargain in 3 or 4 years, when he is hitting his prime.

      • B says:

        A part of the great value for Subban is that he was not 1st rounder. As with many union shops, there are factors other than just performance which can greatly influence compensation.

        –Go Habs Go!–

        • Loop_Garoo says:

          The round you were drafted in means much less than in NFL or NBA when it comes to compensation. Subban probably would have made the same if he was drafted in the first.

  23. Ian Cobb says:

    Our 8th annual 2014 HIO Fan Summit is, Nov.29th weekend.

    Send today, your self addressed stamped envelope with your money order, so I can send you your tickets back!!! (Canadian stamp) Courier is best! especially from USA! I will be cut off from ordering these special HIO game tickets on the 28th day of July.
    I must receive your money order by the 28th.
    Two seating section prices! $83ea. or $105ea.

    Summit game tickets, News, Pictures and comments

    We are staying at the Novotel hotel, discount rates at 866-861-6112 Tell them you are with HIO to get your discount.

    We will all meet and greet at Hurley’s pub Friday eve. on Crescent St. Some of us will be having supper there. Big screen for Hab’s at Buffalo game for us on the 2nd floor, and name tags will be given out.

    Saturday morning, breakfast is at Chez Cora’s at 8:30am. 1240 Drummond St. You can order a la cart and everyone gets 15% discount off your bill.

    After breakfast we walk over to the Bell Center and Hall of Fame Tours.

    At 3pm the Montreal Canadiens Children’s Foundation charity raffle at the Baton Rouge restaurant 1050 Mountain St.
    Each person is asked to bring one gift item to donate for the charity raffle, so everyone gets a gift to go home with.

    Then our Baton Rouge restaurant pre game dinner. With special guests.

    After dinner we walk across the street to see the Hab’s take on Gionta, Gorges and the Buffalo Sabers.

    After the game the 2nd floor of Hurley’s pub is reserved for us again, to celebrate the win. Just identify yourself as a HIO member.

    Please be generous with your charity raffle gifts and your purchase of raffle tickets. It is a way for the HIO community to give back to less fortunate kids.

    Enjoy talking hockey and meeting your wonderful HIO community at this years Summit.

  24. twilighthours says:

    Superpowers, eh? Mine would be this:

    If I saw someone littering, I could wrinkle my nose or pointy-point my finger and have that trash instantly transported to the offender’s bed: dead centre, right between the sheets. When he/she got home…. big surprise.

  25. DipsyDoodler says:

    Here’s the other thing about stats.

    You need to understand them.

    Which most hockey bloggers who use them manifestly do not (unlike the baseball guys, who were hard core statisticians).

    Importantly, each bit of data is an estimate (or measurement) of a presumed underlying variable, and it has to come with an estimate of its reliability, or else it’s meaningless.

    If I tell you that Player X scores once every other powerplay, I’ve told you nothing of value.

    Moving. Forward.

    • B says:

      Hockey stats are a useful measurement of past performance*, but they don’t really explain or capture very well how the thing being measured got to a particular measurement point. There are many varying external factors that can influence how the thing being measured arrived at a measurement point.

      *Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results.

      –Go Habs Go!–

  26. Old Bald Bird says:

    I kind of keep an eye on EOTP. They post regularly and are a good source for keeping up to date. IMO their main flaw is sometimes not seeing beyond Corwick. Sometimes, they wouldn’t even have to watch the games to come up with their analyses. It’s all from the stat sheets.

    Rice’s prospects updates through the season drive me mad. He always uses the conditional tense to describe what happened in the past week as in “Prospect A would go on to …” It’s always “would.” I appreciate the effort and info, but can’t stand the grammar. I just can’t read it anymore, but would be glad to if he were to abandon this quirk.

  27. Alex_425 says:

    Wow, Mr. Cobb, it looks like you’ve done an absolutely fantastic job developing and growing the summit. I tip my hat to you.

    Well, it’s someone else’s hat, since I didn’t bring one with me today, but still!

  28. Luke says:

    Good Morning.


  29. Paz says:

    Nice article on Max Noreau on RDS.ca, from Mtl West, who has signed on to play defence for the Avalanche.
    This has Patrick Roy written all over it.
    Roy knew Noreau from his time in the Q, when Noreau was captain of the Victoriaville team at 18 yrs. Noreau is a little undersized but he is extremely smart, gifted offensively, defensively responsible, and not afraid to get and give hits.
    Undrafted, he did not get a real shot in the NHL from the Wild, so he went off to Europe.
    Now he’s back, and I hope for good.
    Such a well mannered, smart young man, from a wonderful family.
    Stephane Lebeau raved about him when we met a few years back. Lebeau was his coach in Victoriaville.
    No room in Montreal, for sure, as even Pateryn seems blocked out because of our surplus of dmen.



    • Un Canadien errant says:

      Thanks Ed, always appreciate it when you spotlight LHJMQ talent, and give us some background, it helps us to ‘know’ the league and the players.

      • HabinBurlington says:

        Hey Normand, thanks so much for that translation on the Martin Lapointe interview, great information! You are a big help to this place, it is greatly appreciated.

        • Un Canadien errant says:

          And thank you for reverting back to the avatar that I recognize. That’s a big help for me.

          If I had a minor superpower, I’d choose to be able to ‘pin’ an avatar to certain posters once I get used to them. For example, Chris would have Mats Naslund’s image forever more, and be powerless to change it. And I’d be able to attribute garish, unmistakable avatars to certain posters so I’d never accidentally read their stuff.

          • BriPro says:

            Me too!!!!!
            Wow, that’s weird…
            If I had minor superpowers, aside from rendering myself invisible to either 1)hide from my wife or 2)rob a bank, I’d use it to change your avatar Norm. No offence, but I’d go with one of these:


          • Luke says:

            My superpower is the ability to stand in the way.

            No matter where I choose to stand, or what I am doing, I’m in the way. If you ever need something from a closet or a cabinet, guaranteed its the one I’m in front of.

          • HabinBurlington says:

            Well, I don’t know how long I can keep this avatar up, but will try folks. Caught some of the Hurling action last night on TV and I may need to pick a team to support as their championship is pretty much in full swing. I may need Dunboyne Mike to help me pick a team, but I could see a new avatar as a result.

            What a fast paced game to watch.

          • Chris says:

            Don’t worry…I’ve had the same one since they moved to this site, and I can’t see ever changing it. Despite all the other justifications, the real reason I chose that one is that it is very easy for me to find my posts. When I see yellow, I know it is either me or Timo. And since I actually do enjoy Timo’s persona, I’m cool with that.

            If everybody went with yellow avatars, that would perhaps force me to change to something else. Maybe Anze Kopitar in that monstrosity of a Slovenia jersey. 😉

          • Un Canadien errant says:

            @BriPro: come on be honest. 1) is really all about sneaking in the girls’ shower room in gym class back in high school. Don’t pretend you didn’t go see Porky’s like we all did.

            @Chris: I chose the Chargers bolt logo partly for that reason, I felt the site didn’t really need another CH logo, they tend to blend into one, so these avatars don’t really serve the purpose they should. And by doing so, I found out there are quite a few Chargers fans on this site, most who were won over by the Air Coryell teams of the late seventies and early eighties.

      • Paz says:

        My pleasure to share, Normand.

    • Chris says:

      I’ve been wondering if Lebeau might be promoted to be an assistant coach for Therrien. He’s got a good rapport with younger players, and as a former player himself, he can bridge between the players and Therrien.

      • Paz says:

        And he’s a power play guy. He’s a good fit.

      • Un Canadien errant says:

        I was thinking there are a lot of candidates that have NHL experience who would not be gunning for a head coach job, would just support Michel Therrien, kind of a Peter Budaj to his Carey Price, although I don’t have any candidates off the top of my head.

        Something I was wondering about going back to two seasons ago, when they fired Ron Wilson, was whether Sylvain Lefebvre needed an experienced assistant to augment his staff. Again, not someone who’d threaten his authority and his role, but a guy who knows the AHL, the way the league runs, its players, has a feel for how the road trips should be managed, etc. A guy who can advise Sylvain Lefebvre when they hit a rough patch, or friction exists with a certain player (Louis Leblanc).

        The Canadiens seem all in when it comes to Sylvain Lefebvre as head coach of the Bulldogs, as stated by Marc Bergevin, and Martin Lapointe in his press scrum at the development camp. Still, everyone needs mentorship, a source they can trust. The Canadiens have shown to not be cheapskates when it comes to building a brain trust, so I don’t think money is an issue.

        I don’t have any knowledge of the situation down there, but reports from posters here, like HabitantinSurrey for example, seem to be unanimous that Mr. Lefebvre needs help behind the bench during games at least.

        • HabinBurlington says:

          Not a bad idea, but I still wonder if Lefebvre doesn’t get a bad rap because he had a crap roster his first year as coach and it is only now starting to be a roster with depth, experience and talent.

          Aside from a couple of defencmen, he hasn’t had much for scoring, until Tokarski showed up, not much for goalies and certainly nothing for depth.

          When i look at what the Bulldogs roster may be this season, versus the roster I watched a great deal during the lockout, it isn’t even close. That team was just flat out bad, and no coach was going to make them better.

          Lets see how this years version of the Dogs do, and I think we will have a much better idea of what kind of coach Lefebrve is.

          • Un Canadien errant says:

            I understand some of the negative comments from some posters who see the Bulldogs regularly, but I give a lot of stock to the votes of confidence he gets from the Canadiens brain trust. I agree that he couldn’t work miracles with the roster from two seasons ago, but would have liked a bit more of a step forward last season. Again though, there were no scorers on that team, so it’s hard to fault the guy.

            Last summer, Marc Bergevin said plainly that he had a choice between giving Sylvain Lefebvre a roster he could win with, or one to develop the kids with, and he chose the latter, and Mr. Lefebvre didn’t complain just worked with the kids.

          • HabinBurlington says:

            Agree Norm. (starting to get bored agreeing with you all the time….)

        • Paz says:

          I get the feeling that part of Lefebvre’s mandate is to beat down any “character” flaws the players might exhibit.
          There seems to be a zero tolerance philosophy when a player’s interests do not fit perfectly with the team’s perspective.
          Leblanc, Beaulieu, perhaps Nygren, all seem to have run into a similar “brick wall”.

          Personally, while I agree that the team must always come first, there is a type of communication of these priorities that I respect, and I don’t believe we’re getting that from Lefebvre.

          • Marc10 says:

            That’s an interesting point. You might definitely be on to something here. MB doesn’t strike me as being from the school of tender feelings. He’s looking for character guys. LL getting weeded out by Lefebvre was maybe part of that process. Management made the call that Louis was just not going to be a guy others can lean or get support from when the playoffs rolled around and he got turfed. Perhaps he failed the character test (easier to fail when you’re a spare part…)

            In any event, we’ve built a team that can beat the Bruins. Now we need to build a team that can beat the Kings, the Hawks, the Sharks, the Blues or the Ducks. Tall order. We’re not done weeding, but it’s coming along nicely.

  30. Chris says:

    If people don’t like Habs Eyes on the Prize or individuals over there, it is rather simple…just don’t read that site. I routinely skip anything by Rosie DiManno at the Toronto Star as I can’t stand her pretentiousness and contradictions. The Globe and Mail’s Margaret Wente is sometimes worth the read just to try to figure out what article in a major world newspaper she is ripping off this time. Many people here can’t stand the Montreal Gazette’s Jack Todd (I actually like his stuff more often than not) and widely proclaim that they will never read his columns.

    So if columnists and op-ed writers in the mainstream media are so polarizing, why would anybody expect otherwise from fan-run websites? The endless prattle about how bad EotP is or has become became stale long ago. There are posters over there that I don’t care for and others that I do, but that is true here as well. There are a number of people on this site whose posts don’t really float my boat, and I am sure that I have more than my fair share of critics as well. EotP have their niche, and they have a pretty good sized group of fans who enjoy one another’s thoughts and discussions, exactly like HIO. Given that, they are clearly successful at what they are trying to accomplish.

    On the stats front — If you don’t like statistical analysis in hockey, that’s cool. If you do, that is also cool. The world accepts all types.

    Like it or not, statistical analysis and mathematical modeling plays a huge role in a massive number of human endeavours, many of which are as complicated as a hockey game. Examples such as epidemiology or statistical models of bacterial populations are great examples where attempts to use mathematical analysis to model rapidly evolving (often in unpredictable ways!) systems have been met with varying levels of success. That is the whole point of science: it is the attempt to develop mathematical models for observable phenomena so that we can attempt to make predictions. Like the systems being studied, the model continually evolves as more information comes to light. We’ve done pretty well with some models, while others continue to escape being pinned down.

    We don’t have any model that perfectly sums up hockey. We may never achieve that lofty goal. But that doesn’t mean that the endeavour is fundamentally flawed: it just means that the problem is a difficult one. There are always going to be problems with unfounded inferences from statistical data, but that is the nature of the beast. There are just as many unfounded inferences drawn from personal experience or understanding of the game that are routinely trotted out by people who claim to hate sports analytics.

    If any of these methods were infallible, we wouldn’t see such a massive majority of draft picks never make the NHL, nor would we see trades where one team gets completely shafted.

    Personally, I find that the endless debate on stats vs. “eyes” comes down to the type of hockey you enjoy watching and what you think wins hockey games.

    The fact that two of the hockey teams that are most on-board with the sports analytics movement, the LA Kings and Chicago Blackhawks, are also two of the most successful teams in the NHL lends some credence to the idea that analytics are far more useful than many would like to admit.

    The fact that most NHL teams are expanding, not cutting, their scouting departments lends some credence to the idea that scouting and gut instinct continue to be far more useful than many would like to admit.

    They are complementary tools in a good GM’s arsenal, not the contradictory tools that so many fans seem to want to make them out to be.

    • Habfan17 says:

      Very nice post Chris! Numbers are important in business, as the saying goes ” you can’t improve it if you don’t measure it!”
      I am like you, I don’t always like or agree with some writers put out there or with folks here on HIO.

      I think you and I have had opposing views at times. Still, I enjoy reading most of it as it provides a different view and allows me at least to review my position and opinions.

      I do like some hockey stats and they are important. I don’t believe they capture the whole picture and with all the variables, some, like Corsi, are not all that accurate. Nothing replaces watching the players and seeing how they play. True, Eller was on the 3rd line, but if plays a team like Boston and faces having his face pushed up against the glass every shift, that does not show up in a Corsi stat. next game the team may be less aggressive. I guess it will balance out over the course of the season.

      Black and white stats like face offs won in each zone mean something. It would be nice to see face offs won at different points during the game. For instance, How many draws has Pleks won when there is less than a minute to go in a one goal game. He may be at 60% and that is key. Under the extra pressure, he may do much better and another player may lose more.

      I enjoyed reading your post! Have a great day!


    • rhino514 says:

      Certain sports lend themselves more toward statistical analysis.
      In my teens and twenties I was much more of a baseball fan than hockey fan (though I always watched the habs) and partook in tabletop baseball leagues and was full in to Bill James and the Sabermetrics movement.
      Baseball players can be measured far more accurately with advanced stats than hockey players, IMO. I think certain advanced stats can be quite helpful in hockey, but these stats will never be able to achieve what they have achieved in baseball.
      There are just too many players interdependant on each other and on a dozen other impossible to quantify variables.

    • D Man says:

      Certainly agree on Rosie DiManno and not just on sports articles.

      You can’t be both a Habs and a Leafs fan

    • Cal says:

      They can keep their stats. I will watch my Habs willfully ignorant of all
      these numbers and focus on the score and whether or not a player performs by using my eyes and my own judgment.
      Remember, by Berkshire’s standards, Gomez was “unlucky”. How can a mathematician resort to such a superstitious idea as “luck”?

    • CharlieHodgeFan says:

      I’m a marginal sort of poster here – not part of the in-crowd or the group that keeps the site dynamic. I read HIO for entertainment, just as I watch the Habs for fun.
      I have no problem with analytics, except that when fans use them, it has absolutely no effect on anything anyway. Our goal (to me) is to intelligently discuss something we enjoy, with mutual respect and honest attempts at insight. We can’t take ourselves too seriously, since in the world of hockey, we don’t matter a whole lot. And that doesn’t matter.
      I read HIO because there is a core of people here who can talk, and they bother to write well. They are articulate, funny and not afraid to turn a phrase. My few sorties over to other venues have not shown me that – the writing has seemed dull and there are too many people playing piano with hammers. I like clever, and I find it here. Base it on stats, on gut feelings, on experience, on squinting through a hangover – I could care less. Sure we have trolls, fake personas, hero worshippers and “I’m a gonna tell how it’s a gonna be” writers here, but I wade through all that to get to the smart and honest posting.
      Enough people here write like they must talk that when I drop in, it’s like stopping for a beer at a good ‘quick thinking conversation’ bar. Bars like that are hard to find, and this is one, even if I’m having a coffee while I write this.

    • HabinBurlington says:

      Just read through most of the posts from last nite through this morning, maybe just me, but didn’t see endless prattle.

      Yah some people may be taking their opinions on the site a bit strong, but this place is just conversation anyhow.

      • Chris says:

        Endless in that it has been going on ever since Andrew stopped posting here and took over EotP. That was a few years ago. I’ve kept hoping that it would die out, because we really don’t need to be bashing other groups. The people being bashed aren’t here to read it, and it is off-putting to people who peruse both sites.

    • krob1000 says:

      I think the main issue with EOTP is the overreliance on the advanced stats….you have a similar view I do about stats…where you and I disagreed last time this subject came up was with how far they have come…I still don’t think they are close enough to be used as near concrete evidence (unless we know the majority of the external factors). When used as a supplement and/or evidence to HELP you get across a point or make an observation they are just fine and dandy. When we look at most league wide advanced stats we are quite frankly not able to fairly assess their meaning…we have a pretty good gauge of the Habs because we for the most part watch every second of every game…and can see waht else is going on that contributes to those stats. Things like toughness and comfort when having Douglas Murray who is a god awful possessioin player…but at times he was the only thing standing between gigantic opposing players and HAbs stars and the fornt of the Habs net. There are millions of examples the classic beind what happened yesterday and the usage of the “top center” (guy who gets Patches and first line pp min’s and ozone starts,etc). , another is the Gorges plus minus which is always pretty good…yet my eyes tell me for as much good as he did defensively he lost a ton of oportunities offensively and held up the advancement of the puck…not to meniton the youth.

      I stil go to EOTP…I still read it quite a bit but like we all should do with everything in life…i read it, try to take what I can out of it and decide for myself what I feel is relevant…as long as one can remain objective when reading stats everything is fine…tehy have some merit but may be offset by other factors…liek I sadi though….because we all watch all of the Habs games and likely have not time to follow any other team half as closely….we understand the Habs stats better than most teams.

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      I mostly agree with you Chris, that the name-calling lobbed at that site gets tiresome. A few months back I wrote a post asking whether we Habs fans could all get along, maybe inspired by John Stewart and Stephen Colbert’s ‘Rally to Restore Sanity’. Most if not all replies proceeded to lambaste EOTP…

      Having said that, I’ve kind of steered clear of that site, I find what I need here at HIO, along with La Presse and the Gazette and other general hockey sites. I did however click on the link posted yesterday to the article they had re-capping the Canadiens’ moves at free agency. I mostly agreed with the article, but the tone was at least off-putting. The author had a sufficiency, an easy facility that I wasn’t sure wasn’t satire, that he wasn’t playing the role of the sideline expert/blowhard.

      He congratulated Marc Bergevin on learning from his mistakes (!), and rubber-stamped some moves because Michel Therrien would be unable to bungle them. Again, this was written by a website blogger, but offered as a coach would to a player, or a music teacher to his pupil (“Good, but let’s try the diatonic scale again, this time with more puck possession…”).

      Now, as a poster on HIO, you can get away with outrageous commentary and cranky, dismissive observations, but it doesn’t befit that website, which I assume has greater aspirations.

      Anyway, that tone kind of meshed with some of the comments that I’ve read on here about that group, and I didn’t enjoy the read as a result.

  31. Cal says:

    Good morning, all.
    I noticed the Preds made a little noise signing Roy and Ribiero.
    Poile has been GM there since 1998. There has been a salary cap since 2005. He is signing stop gap players. After 15 years. Treading water after all that time.
    Think it’s the ugly yellow sweaters?

    • Habfan10912 says:

      Morning Cal. It seems Ribiero wore out his welcome in Arizona as well. I saw an article about it being “non hockey” related but couldn’t bring myself to read it.

      I was a huge fan of him in Montreal. I thought his skill set was out of this world and he was going to be that player to push the team into a solid playoff team for years.

      I hate to say this because I don’t know the guy at all but maybe there is something to this character thing that Bergevin and the organization keep speaking about, eh?

    • 24 Cups says:

      The Preds replace a devout Christian with a poster boy for bad behaviour. Go figure. Having said that, here’s an interesting fact about Ribeiro. Since 2003-04 he’s posted 431 assists, which is the eighth highest total in the league. He’s also proved his durability as he’s played in the 10th most games among forwards during that stretch. He also works well with a gunslinger and Neal fits that role perfectly.

      24 Cups

      • Paz says:

        I think Trotz tried to run a tight ship there. That’s why I knew they were going to crash and burn with the Tits brothers.

      • Cal says:

        Can’t argue with those roughly 40 assists a year for a cheap (these days) million. Why Poile can’t build a team after all these years is my criticism of him.
        Prediction (I have my gypsy head scarf on today): Nashville starts at 7-3 and then falls back to 10th in the West.

    • 24 Cups says:

      Cal – I have visited Nashville a few times and can tell you it’s a great city with a perfectly located hockey venue. Alas, Nashville as a franchise has been held back for a variety of reasons.
      – first and foremost a lack of money and the ability to spend up to the cap
      – because of this, their coach employed a defense first approach to the game for well over a decade. They didn’t bottom out but basically lived the life of a bubble team
      – because of that fact the team never was in the running for the prime offensive draft picks like Tavares or Stamkos
      – Nashville got burned both times they went all in on a Cup run
      – free agents don’t want to play there because it’s not a “marquee city”
      – they have a great record of drafting Dmen and goalies but usually strike out when it comes to forwards
      – Signing all these retreads this summer will probably cost them a chance at one of the two top lottery picks. Ultimately, that failure to reset the franchise could be all she wrote.

      24 Cups

      • Cal says:

        Still, for all their failures, Nashville has grown a fan base. The question is whether or not that fan base will continue to support the team with no end to their futility in sight.
        After all, Habs fans stopped filling the Bell Centre when the team began to stink from the head down. It’s only since the lockout ended that the Habs have sold out.

      • BriPro says:

        Steve. Having visited Nashville a few times, am I to understand that you know some people there?
        My reason for asking is that my daughter is moving there for the next 5 years on a full scholarship to Vanderbilt.
        But she’s having an awful time finding a rental close to the university, and since we live 18 hours drive away, it’s kinda hard to just hop in the car and go apartment hunting. And the two-day return flights at $1,000/head are too much for me.
        If you any contacts, I’d appreciate some feedback.
        You can email me by getting my address from Ian, Burly, Jim, Frank or Chris.
        ….no pressure. Only if you know someone down there. And thanks.

        • 24 Cups says:

          Brian – Sorry but I don’t have any contacts. I just like to visit the city. It’s a bit like Toronto was years ago.

          24 Cups

          • BriPro says:

            No problem Steve. At this point, considering she’s moving in 3 weeks with no lease, we’re just clutching at straws.
            Thanks for the feedback.

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      Interesting question. I’m tempted to think it’s a question of drafting, so I looked up their first-rounders on hockeydb, or any notables.

      2000: Scott Hartnell, a useful winger, whose rights they dealt in a trade to Philadelphia along with Kimmo Timonen’s as they were about to hit free agency. In return the Preds got back a first-rounder they’d traded away for Peter Forsberg when they were ‘going for it’ in 2007, as mentioned by 24 Cups.

      The Preds also picked up Matt Hendricks, a more talented Ryan White-type, in the third round, who found his groove in Washington.

      2001: Dan Hamhuis, a good do-it-all second-pairing defenceman, who they lost in free agency due to budgetary considerations in 2010 to the Canucks. The fact that it wasn’t necessarily a cap issue, but a money issue, apparently riled Ryan Suter and Shea Weber, leading them apparently to wonder if they’d ever win in Nashville.

      They got Jordin Tootoo, a bowling ball who’s scored 49 goals so far in his career, in the fourth.

      2002: Scottie Upshall, another useful winger who before he became a regular was dealt to the Flyers, in the original Peter Forsberg trade.

      2003: Great, great draft, they hit on three, maybe four defencemen. Ryan Suter in the first round, Kevin Klein and Shea Weber in the second round. Three roster defencemen in one draft, including two Top 10 in the league. Comparable to the Canadiens’ picks of Ryan McDonagh and P.K. Subban in 2006, along with Yannick Weber. The Preds also get Alex Sulzer in the third round, and he got some playing time this season with the Sabres. There’s their reputation for drafting defencemen well.

      2004: Alexander Radulov. Right player wrong location? Would he have put up with the low(er) contract offers if he’d been in L.A. or NYC? Or with a team that wasn’t defensively-oriented? Can’t fault the pick, they just couldn’t retain him.

      Another good draft for their scouts, they get Pekka Rinne in the eighth round.

      2005: The lottery year, they choose Ryan Parent, a Chris-favourite. Have to believe he held promise, but couldn’t put it together in the NHL. They find Cody Franson in the third, and show yet more skill at picking defencemen. Patrick Hornqvist in the seventh round is another late-round steal.

      2006: No first-round pick, they get Blake Geoffrion in the second, who they dealt at the deadline along with a second-rounder for Hal Gill in 2012.

      2007: Jonathan Blum, an offensively-gifted defenceman from the Vancouver Giants who never panned out. They get another regular forward in the second round in Nick Spaling.

      2008: Colin Wilson, a bottom-six centre, another forward in the mold we think of now when we think of the Preds. They get Anders Lindback in the seventh round, another goalie find.

      The most recent rounds can’t really be evaluated yet, but again the more eye-catching picks in the first round are defencemen Ryan Ellis and Seth Jones. It’s ironic that last June they might have expected to get a crack at a Sasha Barkov or Alexandre Drouin with the fourth pick, but instead had a defenceman (Seth Jones) fall in their laps.

      So their reputation for drafting well when it comes to defencemen is well-deserved, as is that they find dependable, unspectacular forwards.

      This year, they went against type by taking a small, slick scorer in Kevin Fiala. Hope it turns out for them.

      • 24 Cups says:

        That basically proves my point about forwards as only Hartnell has really been a decent success. Drafting Hornqvist in the 7th round is pure luck just like some other teams.

        The Forsberg and K brothers/Radulov/Gill playoff experiments were total busts.

        Before Seth Jones, the Preds only picked twice in the top ten over a ten year period. Other teams like Chicago, St Louis and LA tanked and were able to add solid building blocks. Of course Edmonton unwillingly did the same and are still on shaky ground.

        24 Cups

      • Cal says:

        There’s a certain familiarity for us with a team like Nashville that has rarely finished low enough to garner a top 3 pick. The Habs suffered the same fate from Corey’s bonehead firing of Savard and Demers all the way to finally getting Gainey on board.
        At least Gainey stopped the bleeding and started the pipeline of players despite being imperfect as GM.
        Poile has been there for all of Nashville’s drafts and trades. Nashville isn’t a whole lot better. I guess it demonstrates just how tough a business operating a team in the NHL is.

  32. Mavid ® says:

    @trini that would be wonderful if you could help out, I won’t be back until at least the 28th or later I gave Jim my e mail addy.. I have wifi were I am staying but not when I am touring around..I will be checking in here when I can but it is 5 hours later..so we may miss each other , e mail me if you can and thanks again

    Weed Wacker Grandma Smurf

  33. bwoar says:

    More Finnish madness. This tune has a real nice groove with some very fat horns:


  34. bwoar says:


    Whoa horsey… minute la!

    There’s a place for stats in many domains, but in both hockey and psychology they result in as much obscurity as elucidation. I work in an industry utterly dominated by analytics and make a living from people not willing or not able to grasp that both outcomes co-exist. Intentionally and for profit. I find that description suits peer-reviewed scientific articles just as well, really.

    It’s easy to look smart to that audience, as it’s the people presenting that determine which outcome is being served.

    Flippancy is a valid response to the idea that deep statistical analysis is *necessary* for a greater understanding of hockey. A shallower, but clear understanding is often better than plumbing the depths for esoterica.

    What galls at EOTP are opinion pieces – almost by rote – when a writer leads with a conclusion, accuses “a lot of people” of holding the opposing view, or implies the coaches are idiots, and then waves a bevy of magic charts around that only give part of the picture. A lot of pretension as though the whole story is being told when it is not.

    Consider how that contrasts with the blog “En attendant les Nordiques” where Olivier is consistently even-handed and rarely reaches for anything. He is eloquent to boot. It’s easier to make use of the data as a reader when it is more responsibly curated. I’m pretty sure you don’t need to be told this. But, and so…?!

    It’s not surprising that people have a visceral dislike for the amateur hour at EOTP. It’s a shame because they do such a good job following prospects.

    • UKRAINIANhab says:

      I hate how people think that we are SO much better than them and make fun of them for posting stats and analytics and stuff.

      The amount of hate here towards EOTP sometimes comes across as jealousy. We are all Hab fans and shouldn’t have this animosity towards them… If stats aren’t your thing, like me, then dwell at HiO. If they are dwell at EOTP. It is quite simple.

      Edit: this isn’t really a reply however, you mentioned eotp so I brought it up : )

      • bwoar says:

        I think people can happily coexist at either site. There’s a wide range between the two “extremes” and I think it’s a false dichotomy in the first place. We should all get along!

    • J.Ambrose.OBrien says:

      It’s just Berkshire that turns me off that site. He’s your stereotypical picked-on kid who discovered the internet, and decided knowing how to operate a keyboard gives him status as an expert in whatever he chooses to spew. His embracing of analytics is the ol’ lipstick on a pig.

      I remember Dec. 31, 1975

      • ProHabs says:

        Used to really like EOTP when Robert L. was the main man. Have not returned to the site since Berkshire took his act over there.

      • bwoar says:

        AB rubs me the wrong way too, but if it was just one guy I wouldn’t care. Mainly I hate the tone of their editorials. I prefer actual journalism to number crunching, and solid writing to low-brow smarm. They are brutally poor writers, for the most part.

        Normand’s blog, if you guys don’t actually go there, is terrific and reflects the quality of his writing here. I’m so glad he doesn’t say Mr. so much anymore too 🙂

    • DipsyDoodler says:

      “Both outcomes coexist”

      Is that a Zen koan or something of that nature?

      Moving. Forward.

      • bwoar says:

        Yes, and no. Heh. A more serious answer would be:
        The two outcomes are not mutually exclusive. You can get confusion and clarity at the same time, the real rub is that you aren’t always able to be sure which you have in relation to that which you wish to know.

        Big reason why stats are misleading: it is not the stats so much as the intentions of their presentation we should mistrust. It’s poker, plain and simple. And it’s awfully hard to read the player across a computer screen.

  35. UKRAINIANhab says:

    I would go to this damn thing if I didn’t live halfway Across the damn world in the year….

    Would love to return to Montreal!

  36. The Jackal says:

    It’s great how the summit brings all us HIOers together, literally and also figuratively. I’m hoping to make an appearance this year, since I’ll be living in Montreal, but I don’t think I’ll be able to get the money on time :S so it may just be a drop in hello at Hurley’s.

    Anyhow, on a related note… does anyone have any tips on how to get an apartment in Montreal but from Toronto? I can’t make it to MTL until August… is that too late to get a good 1BR in the McGill/Sherbrooke/lower plateau area?

    Hockey sine stercore tauri.

    • CH Marshall says:

      In my experience, August is slim pickings after the massive July 1st move-out. You never know- could be that students need to move out mid-August but cant keep the place till Sept 1. If I were you, I’d look along a bit west on the green metro line just in case

    • J.Ambrose.OBrien says:

      As someone who has moved about 20 times over the years, I can tell you the July 1 date matters less and less now. Leases are no longer standardized just to renew then. It is still the traditional moving day. But you can find great places in “low-season” for moving.

      I highly recommend two things: first, DO NOT rent sight-unseen. Take a shared accommodations for the first few months to give yourself time to look around. There are always thousands of students looking for roommates, or even better conditions with other more settled renters (I, for example, rent my spare room on Air BnB). Check Kijiji or Air BnB or there are even websites devoted to shared accommodations/roommates.
      Secondly, forget about the McGill ghetto and lower Plateau. That is NOT Montreal. Look in Mile End or Little Italy/Petite Patrie/Rosemont. Sure, a bit further to go to school, but a much better and authentic Montreal experience. Also the southwest part of town (St. Henri, Griffintown, Verdun) is the new up & coming cool part of town. Even further, but still on the metro line, so easy to get to school.
      Anyway, I recommend not renting your own place right away. 1 bedrooms are scarce, and the ones available and affordable are usually dives. Get something temporary and then explore the areas I suggested and decide what is for you. Plus, there is less competition for available places come winter.
      Enjoy! Ain’t no better life than a student’s life in Mtl.

      I remember Dec. 31, 1975

      • bwoar says:

        Total wisdom here!! Great way to sum it up.

      • The Jackal says:

        Thanks for the tips.
        I’ve decided I’m going to try and go next week and line a place up.
        I’d rather live on my own but If I can get a good arrangement with other people then that would work out too.

        Hockey sine stercore tauri.

        • J.Ambrose.OBrien says:

          It’s just that decent 1 bedroom flats are as rare here as Canadian flags on July 1. Be willing to look further afield. There are so many cool “quartiers” in Montreal that are not the Plateau. Everyone gets around by bike for 8-9 months, and takes public transport in between. Very easy to get to McGill or downtown from anywhere.
          Good luck!

          I remember Dec. 31, 1975

    • bwoar says:

      When I moved there (McGill area) I lined stuff up in March. August is gonna be a real longshot J. Move close to a metro station though, and mostly you’ll be set.

  37. CJ says:

    I’m super excited for the Summit. I’m looking forward to having the pleasure of meeting those in attendance and discussing hockey over hot and cold beverages.

    Do others bring their families, or is this a singles only event?

    A big thank you Ian for all the help in pulling this together.

    Cheers, CJ

  38. If anyone is passing on the Summit I’m thinking about heading to Montreal for Boston’s first game back on the 16th (Oct),and then the Avs are there two nights later. I wouldn’t miss that Bruins game for anything. Should be the best game of the regular season, especially after all the drama of the hand shake line. You suck Lucic!

    We’ve been on the road since Friday, was in NYC this afternoon, and Chicago two days ago. We got within 20 miles of Manhattan then I chickened out, the Silverado is just too big to be driving around there. Chicago was a blast and I got to see a ship that I used to sail on to get from PEI to Canada, memories!

    Going to be in PEI tomorrow, I may sleep for a week.

    Anything going on in the hockey world? haha Who cares it’s summer. 🙂

    Peace out, I’m pouched!

    Shane Oliver
    A Little fun during the Intermission
    Brandon Predators End Season Video

    • Ncognito says:

      The old Abby! She was in the movie Running Scared with Billy Crystal and Gregory Hines.

    • BriPro says:

      Shane. You’re in PEI today?
      If you’re going to Cavendish, there was a small shopping complex at the north end of highway 7 (at the very top) that was for sale last year. Just le time know if it’s still for sale. Thanks.

  39. B says:

    Abducted by Aliens – P.K. Subban


    Words of wisdom you’d leave behind for future generations:
    “Get out while you can!”

    –Go Habs Go!–

  40. AliHaba says:

    So Ian it doesn’t have to be the Super Bowl weekend. If they have 2 home games in 3 nights would be fine. Just a suggestion for your consideration.

  41. habstrinifan says:

    Thanks for relaying info.

    I’ll be in and out of the site tonight… if you speak to Mavid just tell her I can take of the order and we can settle when she returns.

    “Protest Rogers blackout of Habs game…sign at:


  42. Ian Cobb says:

    TIMO WILL BE A SPECIAL GUEST THIS YEAR!! Boone will be pleased. Get on that Calgary plane Timo!

  43. AliHaba says:

    Geez I wish I could make the summit. Same old issue here though… when we try to make our annual trek to Montreal we always look to see two games so the Super Bowl weekend is usually our target. Ian you do a great job organizing the summit but I’m asking you again could you possibly look at scheduling for a 2-game trip for the 2015-16 season? Too far to go for just one game. Thanks for your consideration.

  44. Ian Cobb says:

    Our 8th annual 2014 HIO Fan Summit is, Nov.29th weekend.

    We are staying at the Novotel hotel, discount rates at 866-861-6112 Tell them you are with HIO to get your discount.

    We will all meet and greet at Hurley’s pub Friday eve. on Crescent St. Some of us will be having supper there. Big screen for Hab’s at Buffalo game for us on the 2nd floor, and name tags will be given out.

    Saturday morning, breakfast is at Chez Cora’s at 8:30am. 1240 Drummond St. You can order a la cart and everyone gets 15% discount off your bill.

    After breakfast we walk over to the Bell Center and Hall of Fame Tours.

    At 3pm the Montreal Canadiens Children’s Foundation charity raffle at the Baton Rouge restaurant 1050 Mountain St.
    Each person is asked to bring one gift item to donate for the charity raffle, so everyone gets a gift to go home with.

    Then our Baton Rouge restaurant pre game dinner. With special guests.

    After dinner we walk across the street to see the Hab’s take on Gionta, Gorges and the Buffalo Sabers.

    After the game the 2nd floor of Hurley’s pub is reserved for us again, to celebrate the win. Just identify yourself as a HIO member.

    Please be generous with your charity raffle gifts and your purchase of raffle tickets. It is a way for the HIO community to give back to less fortunate kids.

    Enjoy talking hockey and meeting your wonderful HIO community at this years Summit.

  45. Un Canadien errant says:

    Canadiens Player Development Director Martin Lapointe plays a pivotal role in the Canadiens’ hierarchy, tasked with guiding the prospects drafted and/or signed by the Canadiens through their development path in the hopes that most max out their potential. The thought is that by following up with them and offering any support they may need, more of them will pan out, and this will provide the team with organizational depth and a greater chance at winning consistently. This isn’t anything revolutionary, but it is new to the Canadiens, and the position and the work he does is long overdue.

    Having said that, he hasn’t been prominent in the media. If anything, his direct report Patrice Brisebois has had more camera time, appearing on l’Antichambre, and often being interviewed by newspapers and other sources. So it was a welcome opportunity to hear him speak when he was interviewed during the Prospect Development Camp last week, he took on a scrum of reporters and had lots to offer. He’s an engaging, positive and optimistic type, and we can hope that it rubs off on our prospects.

    The trouble is, the scrum was conducted entirely in French, and I haven’t found any video of him fielding questions in English. So here is my translation of the video from RDS.


    He’s asked about the kind of physical testing the recruits undergo at the camp:

    “There are many factors: cardio, power output, agility, quickness and speed, and these are tests we do every prospects camp and training camp, and it allows us to establish a baseline, and see if the youngster is progressing.”

    Asked whether he undergoes that testing, he scoffs, and says that it’s not a very pleasant experience to undergo, but it does give a good picture of what their conditioning is and how they’re improving.

    He’s then asked about that, whether many of the kids do progress:

    “Generally, there’s always a progression. If you want to become a (pro) hockey player, the kids know that it takes sacrifice, so they mostly come into camp quite ready, and every year there are great steps taken and improvements.”

    Next the subject of improvement on the Bulldogs is brought up:

    “I admit that two years ago, it wasn’t fun losing games, a lot of games, but last year, it went well. The coaches are very patient, they spend a lot of time with the young players, they do a lot of video sessions, and we saw the progress this year. Like I said before, by taking small steps, we’ll get there.”

    About Michael McCarron:

    “Michael is a big guy, it will take time, we need to be patient. He spoke to you, and told you himself that he had difficulty adjusting (to the OHL), but he played better in the second half. Michael understands, he’s ready to work hard and dedicate himself to improve, he knows what he has to improve on. From there, we can help him improve.”

    Asked if he can see a difference from the previous season:

    “Yes. We saw him this summer, before he came to the prospects camp, he came to town and showed his progress, and to see that is great. He’s a big guy, he got stronger, ‘harder’. I asked him to increase his muscle mass, and that’s what he did, his body-fat percentage is much lower.”

    The subject of Michael playing centre for the London Knights is raised:

    “That surprised me also. It’s good to see that a youngster can play at every position, he’s a big guy, he takes up a lot of space at centre, and he’s not that bad playing there, on the faceoffs. So it’s an extra asset, an additional skillset being able to play there.”

    Asked about which specific players progressed enough to challenge for the open roster spots that Marc Bergevin said were available:

    “We (Player Development) are here to observe, evaluate, help them to develop. Final decisions are not for us to make. We have the coaching staff from Hamilton which is here to evaluate, some LHJMQ coaches in Éric Veilleux and Dominic Ducharme gaining experience. The big decisions, we’ll leave those to Marc.”

    He’s asked about Jiri Sekac:

    “This is the first time I’ve seen him play. I’ve seen him on YouTube like everyone else, but I’ve been very impressed. What impressed me the most is his competitiveness. He’s able to hit, to play physical, he won’t get intimidated, he skates very well, incredible hockey sense, so very positive.”

    He talks about the team bonding activity that was held at Bromont, video of it showed the boys doing some orienteering and team-building challenges. He explained that he didn’t want to let the cat out of the bag as to where the kids were going and what they’d do, since the players themselves didn’t know yet, they’d find out once on the bus. In general though, he explains that the group would be broken up into teams, and it would allow them to get to know each other, as well as the Canadiens management to get to know them better. He reminds us that the kids drafted this year were scouted by Trevor Timmins’ staff, but he hasn’t really gotten a chance to meet them and work with them.

    He is asked about the number of players at the prospects camp, 50 players in all, lots of invited players on top of those drafted/signed by the team. I was glad this question was asked since that is the biggest number of players I’ve heard of, compared to the Canucks, Jets, Flames and Oilers, for example, who seemed to hover around 30 players. Note that I didn’t dislike this, I thought it was an indication that the Canadiens were spending their money in an area that’s not governed by the salary cap, using their resources and financial clout to leave no stone unturned:

    “Well, it allows us a first look, a closer look at players that we may want to follow next season. It’s also to give them experience. We have a lot of LHJMQ players who are here, I think it’s important. We want to have games (at camp), so it allows us to make up (full) teams. But the principal reason is to have that first look, a good close look in advance (of next season, or over other teams, the meaning is unclear).”

    A reporter asks him about his own progression in his role, about his comfort level over last year:

    “Well first of all I think it’s great fun. I’ve done pro scouting before, now I’m in development, it’s more coaching one-on-one. I have an opportunity to work with the Hamilton coaches who do excellent work. When there are video meetings with young players, with Donald Dufresne, Stéfan Lebeau, Sylvain Lefebvre, I want to be in the meeting, it lets me learn how to coach a guy, to analyze video, lots of things. It’s more one-on-one work.

    “When I meet with a young player, we talk, I take him to dinner, we talk about his game. Last year I started to film them, and it gives me footage to talk about with them. It’s fun.”

    He’s asked if the feedback from the young players is good, especially compared to previously when prospects were left more to their own devices:

    “Certainly things have evolved since my days (as a player), it’s the same everywhere. I don’t want to take anything away from what Trevor did before (Note: Trevor Timmins had to do this follow up with our prospects under the previous administrations), but teams have evolved. More and more, tasks get delegated, and it makes more sense.”

    He’s asked if the vacant assistant-coaching job with the Canadiens interests him:

    “Not really. I have a job to do, I like what I do, I have young children, I would have to move my family. I live in Chicago, my family is happy there, my children are young, so I’m happy in my current position.

    He’s asked about Gabriel Dumont, who played well in Hamilton but wasn’t called up, whether he’s getting frustrated or discouraged:

    “Again, the decisions are not up to me. I don’t see that he’d get frustrated. He played every game with impeccable intensity. Gabriel has lots of character, I don’t see why he wouldn’t get called up.”

    When a player is ‘dropped’ like Louis Leblanc, how does it feel, and why didn’t it work out for him?:

    “Why didn’t it work out… Our role is to bring them to the highest level they can attain. If it doesn’t work out, maybe he needs a change of scenery. I’m happy he’s going to Anaheim, getting a change. I called him, wished him good luck, told him the change might do him some good.”

    Asked about Magnus Nygren leaving Hamilton to go back to Sweden, and what the Canadiens will do to help European players integrate better there:

    “One thing I want to assure you is that every player who goes to Hamilton is treated in an incredible, impeccable manner. Players who decide to go back to Europe, that’s their choice, we can’t prevent them from leaving.

    “Those who go to Hamilton, I know one thing: we spend time with them, and the Hamilton coaches do excellent work. I’m there a week and a half per month, I see it, I feel it. To say that players aren’t well supported, and that Europeans aren’t taken care of, I can’t say that. It’s their personal choice to go to Europe, they get a better offer, we can’t control that.”

    The reporter insists, clarifying that his question wasn’t related to coaching, but to the conditions faced by players in Hamilton:

    (Martin Lapointe scoffs) “The coaches and I stay just outside of Hamilton. We’re good, we eat well every night, there’s no problem there. Hamilton isn’t better or worse than Montréal.” (He rolls his eyes and chuckles, to indicate that he thinks any concern in that regard has no merit)

    He’s asked how it feels when he hears that there’s no ready prospects in Hamilton, no one really ready to make the jump:

    “Patience, patience… You get prospects through the draft. You have to have patience, you have to develop them. What’s the use of bringing a kid up before he’s ready? Marc Bergevin will make the decisions when the players are ready. Our job is to develop them. Patience is the key word.”

    It’s somewhere between a toothless attack and a vicious homage.–Paul Rudd


  46. twilighthours says:

    I didn’t read the (allegedly) biased EOTP article on the state of the Habs’ centres, but I’ll tell you one thing EOTPers are doing right:

    Giving us good info on the prospects.

    That those guys were at all the development camp stuff, shot lots of video, and are posting it is pretty cool.

    • HardHabits says:

      When they report they can be quite informative. It’s when they project what the Habs should or shouldn’t do and that get’s presumptuous.

  47. HabFab says:

    Has anyone taken a look at the stats on here? Not too shabby Marc!

  48. Rad says:

    Some slick moves on that Sekac video. Management just might have found us a player.

  49. HabFab says:

    Was just looking at the picture on the Facebook page. Whatever happened to Robert L? Have not heard from him in a dog’s age.

  50. HardHabits says:

    Found a good quote pertaining to one of today’s topics:

    They say that statistic don’t lie, and while that may be true, liars do use statistics.

    So I decided to dig further and found a few more gems:

    Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamppost: for support, not illumination. – Vin Scully

    Life it is not just a series of calculations and a sum total of statistics, it’s about experience, it’s about participation, it is something more complex and more interesting than what is obvious. – Daniel Libeskind

    Facts are stubborn, but statistics are more pliable. – Mark Twain

    And the most important… drum roll please…

    Correlation does not imply causation.

    • punkster says:

      Cute, though I find your anti-analytics stance is based primarily on personal contempt for an individual rather than on any fact based reality. Being shot down, burned or banned can be hard to swallow but one would think that over time a light would come on and one would at least try to comprehend the basis for, and validity of, said analytics. At some point one might even ask relevant questions or maybe attempt to put forth reasonable suggestions. Flippancy can be funny though it is often viewed as simply smart ass.

      Release the Subbang!!!

      • HabFab says:

        You never mentioned having been a teacher at some point… very interesting!

      • HardHabits says:

        Stats are merely data. And construed data at that. On there own they conclude nothing. There are many more variables at play in all things whether economics, psychology or hockey.

        At any rate, I am not the one who coined the term stats weenies. But I like it. Because it speaks to the truth. A bunch of nerds crunching numbers and counting beans. Then there’s their whole other secret realm of stats, the deep stats, handed down to the worthy from the high priests of Corsi-Fenwick, and only the initiated understand. It’s hocus-pocus and malarky all rolled into one online community out-reach counselling group that is slowly becoming another cult.

  51. secretdragonfly says:

    WOO HOO!!!!! Ian, you da man! We’re in for everything (and yes, Shane, we’ll take care of the nametags so you can just be the entertainment) – money order will be in the mail by Friday.

  52. JohnInTruro says:

    Apologize if posted before but a fantastic clip from EOTP on Sekac at the development camp. Man against boys…


    • johnnylarue says:

      I missed it–thanks for posting!

      Yes, his skill level is clearly a notch (if not several) above the kids he was playing with at dev camp. The level of confidence he displayed is what we should expect to see from an established NHL player under similar circumstances (i.e. playing against juniors/greenhorns.)

      Looks like Coach Therrien has options…

      • scamorza says:

        you are right but still wow. Thanks for posting John Turturro er, John in Truro, sorry John but its what first comes to mind when reading your moniker. BTW, nice country was in the area a month ago. Really like the half decent speed limits!

        come to Dorion suits where you get no….”hassoles” _ Yvon Lambert

  53. Ian Cobb says:

    Summit game tickets, News, Pictures and comments

    Please get your self addressed stamped envelops, with your money orders in the mail now, so not to miss out!

  54. PuffNStuff says:

    I see the HIO clique is off to another drunken stupor I mean summit. Bringing the wifeys or you up there creepin wid 304’s?

  55. Habfan10912 says:

    @Trini. You still there?


    Look at DD and Pleks any way you want, they’re both 2nd line centers.

  57. Ian Cobb says:

    2014 SUMMIT GAME ACT TODAY–very little time! Limited tickets!

    Bell Center gave us very little time for you, to send me a money order and a self addressed stamped envelope. (Canadian stamp) to send you your tickets back.

    The date for the Summit is November 29th against Gionta, Gorges and the Buffalo Sabers.

    I have to have payment (money order’s only) for our HIO fan Summit event and ticket for the pre-game charity fund raiser dinner, within the next 10 days.
    Price- $83ea. and $105.ea.
    Courier is best, especially from USA.

    Meet and Greet Fri. 6pm Hurley’s pub. Watch the Hab’s at Buffalo. 1st game of the home and home game on the big screen 2nd floor. Name tags will be given out.
    Discount breakfast Chez Cora’s. Sat. morning. 8:30am.
    Bell Center and Hall of Fame tours at 10:30am.
    Pre-game dinner at the Baton Rouge and Montreal Canadiens Children Foundation raffle 3pm.
    Hab’s and Buffalo game.
    Hurley’s Pub to celebrate the win.
    Get your money orders in the mail today please. Little time before we are cut off.
    Send to me at 63 Village Dr. Belleville Ont. K8P 4K2

    • Ian Cobb says:

      Hi Ian,

      I am going to be at the Hurley’s meet and greet on Friday night, November 28. I am doing my best to drag along a special guest.
      My older brother is Chrys Goyens, the writer of Lions in Winter, the biographer of Jean Beliveau: My Life in Hockey, Maurice Richard: Reluctant Hero and Larry Robinson for the Defense.
      He has not been in the best of health lately, but I will try to get him there to sign any books the Summiteers bring.

      I will e-mail you in early October to confirm.


      (Gilbert Goyens)

  58. habstrinifan says:


    I can help… please read on.
    Let me know either here or however you like (I can give you particlulars how to reach me by phone ) and I can send one money order for the tickets etc and you relax and refund me when you get home.

    Let me know.

    To all members from Ottawa(there are many). Maybe we can all meet for a drink, make a list and collect funds and then buy ONE ‘total’ money order and send to Ian.

    Included would be a list of the ‘members’ and the # of tickets and which tickets.

    We would have to do this by Monday next week I would say.
    Think it should help Ian as he would have to deal with less paper work up front. We could include sef-addressed and stamped envelopes within the package that we send to Ian with the money order.

    Let me know.

    Either way I am gonna be sending a money order by priority mail on Tuesday July 22nd.

    “Protest Rogers blackout of Habs game…sign at:


  59. Un Canadien errant says:

    1) Amazingly balanced and restrained discussion on David Desharnais, no one referring to him as a smurf, or calling him the teacher’s pet, or making a snide allusion to his chemistry with Max. We’re debating the issue based on facts and performance.

    Everyone pat yourselves on the back.

    2) The scoreboard, yeah, awful. Enough.

    Simple fix: Why not have the next game be on the scoreboard, at 0-0, and wait for puck drop for a few weeks?

    Mavid can give us the daily countdown. While we hold our breath.

    It’s somewhere between a toothless attack and a vicious homage.–Paul Rudd


  60. Un Canadien errant says:

    We’d heard that Michael McCarron trained last summer in London with former Knight and Habs prospect Jarred Tinordi, and I thought that was great news. Jarred has demonstrated a seriousness, a commitment to his physical training, and the proof is in the pudding. From a gangly 205 lbs. youngster when he was drafted, Jarred has added some serious muscle, some size since then, and weighs in at 227 pounds according to the latest update on the Canadiens website. And you can tell it’s ‘good weight’, his traps and neck are markedly more developed then before. He’s not puffy in the face, it’s not cheeseburger weight.

    So that was a great help for Michael to start his pro career, even though his initiation to the OHL wasn’t smooth. There’s nothing to help motivate you like a good training partner, especially one who’s stronger than you. We hoped that he’d put in another good summer of training, and come back bigger, badder, better next season.

    And that seems to be what’s in the offing, since Mike is training again this summer with Jarred Tinordi and Bo Horvat among others in London, under the direction of a physical conditioning coach. He has already put on five pounds this summer, and weighed in at the prospects camp at 241 pounds. Martin Lapointe said that he’s come into camp bigger, stronger, and leaner, that his body composition measurements are all improved this summer, so he’s shedding some french fry-derived baby fat.

    Michael also said the team has asked him to work on his speed, so that’s what he’s focusing on right now in the gym. Some may think that’s paradoxical, putting on weight yet working on quickness and speed. Ed brought up the point that usually a player drops weight to get quicker. David Desharnais did that very thing last off-season.

    In Michael’s case though, we need to remember that he’s a growing boy, still a teen, and he’ll just naturally add weight as he fills out. We definitely don’t want him to be dropping weight at this stage of his development. He’s not a rolly-polly kid like Alexis Pépin, a guy who didn’t train and didn’t pay attention to nutrition, and now needs to slim down to become a pro.

    Further, when a player adds muscle in the amounts that Michael McCarron and Jarred Tinordi do, most of it ends up in the legs and the hips, the core. So it’s not dead weight that needs to be lugged around the ice, but rather extra cubic inches for the engine. It’s muscle that helps a player go.

    If Michael is training hard, doing squats in the gym and box jumps and plyometric work, if he’s running stairs, and doing his work on the ice, and eating lots of protein, his quads and glutes and hamstrings will grow like weeds, like when Wile E. Coyote sent away for those ACME pills. He’s a growing boy, he’s got lots of testosterone, packing on muscle is no problem for a kid like that.

    So I’m happy that Mike, since he has that giant boyish frame anyway, is packing on some meat, which will make him quicker, faster, more explosive, stronger on his skates, and improve his balance. A lot of the critiques of his play, that he’s ‘not on the puck’ but rather chasing the play, that he takes a while to get going, that he’s not very agile, that he doesn’t hit that hard, he has a hard time lining up a player and really unloading on him, that he falls down a lot after contact, all these issues can be addressed by him being stronger and more explosive in his legs and hips, and stronger in his core.

    Another concern we have with Michael is what next season will look like for him in the OHL. It’s a foregone conclusion that he will end up back in junior, even though the AHL is technically an option for next season. In reality, he still hasn’t progressed enough to show that he’s ready to play against men, against pros. Another season in junior will allow him to hone his skills at a level appropriate to his ability right now.

    I thought he might be traded to another OHL team, one that’s likely to contend, for picks and young players, as the Knights rebuild from their Memorial Cup run team. Instead, Dale Hunter speaks like he will be back in London and will play a prominent role.

    «Nous avons besoin qu’il le soit et il le sera. Il va éclore à l’attaque et noircir sa fiche de points»

    Translated: “We need him to be a frontline player and he will be. He’s going to break out offensively and get on the scoresheet.”

    So for now, it looks like the Knights won’t go scorched-earth like the Blades did last season, trading away any veteran player of value in return for young players and rebuilding after going for broke the season they were hosting the Memorial Cup. Instead, the Knights will have a few good players still, notably Mitch Marner who is projected to go in the first round of the 2015 draft.

    Also, Bo Horvat, who some saw as a likely member of the Canucks next season, now will have a tougher row to hoe, with the patch job that Jim Benning did to retool on the fly. It’s now thought that Mr. Horvat would have to play on the fourth-line, and there is some debate as to whether he’d be better off in London playing 25 minutes a night. If that was the case, Michael McCarron would have some decent linemates to play with and learn from.

    So a big role change for Michael, compared to the fourth-line minutes he received for much of the season last year. And if he’s up to it and shows great improvement and produces, there yet another step he can climb, by taking part in the World Junior tournament for Team USA in January 2015.

    A positive aspect is the attitude of Michael relative to his performance last season. He’s not trying to snow anyone, he admits he didn’t perform that well, and has to improve a lot next season, as he stated at the prospect camp. He said flat out that not getting selected for the 2014 World Junior team in December stung and was a wake-up call.

    One final consideration is the progression Jarred Tinordi showed between his first and second OHL season. I remember one of the RDS boys, not sure if it was Stéphane Leroux or Renaud Lavoie or someone else, who explained that when they first saw Jarred at the prospect camp after he got drafted, they were dumbfounded, he seemed so uncoordinated compared to the others. The next season, it was like night and day, he came in with more size, coordination, skill, and the pick now made a lot of sense to that observer.

    We can hope that Michael, having faced a lot of the same hurdles that Jarred did, in terms of growing into his huge body, and making the jump from the USNTDP team to the OHL, shows the same development curve at camp and next season.

    It’s somewhere between a toothless attack and a vicious homage.–Paul Rudd


    • CH Marshall says:

      Kept thinking of Pouliot while reading your post. I don’t think PG and JM gave a hoot about his leg conditioning. He looked like a different player in the Rangers series.

    • JohnInTruro says:

      Great read Norm, thanks.

    • FANHABULOUS says:

      Fantastic read as usual UCE. And you’re bang on about Michael… if his head is in the right place, and he’s dedicated in the gym and on the ice, he’ll work out just fine.

      “You will not regret picking me” – PK Subban.

    • HardHabits says:

      Good article and you made it through quite a lengthy article that with only one “mister”. Good job.

    • frontenac1 says:

      Wile E.Coyote was shafted amigo. That little Bastard Roadrunner should have been snuffed years ago.

    • goaliehabsfan says:

      You make an excellent point that most people don’t understand about body weight and how it relates to performance, and speed in particular. To be fast you need to be strong and powerful. Take a look at a sprinter for an example, and compare them to a marathoner. the sprinter is big and strong, while the marathoner is thin and light. This is why McCarron needs to put on “weight”.

      However, just putting on mass, even muscle mass is not enough, he needs to train specifically for explosiveness and speed, which has a major neurological component to it. This is why many people are thrown off by what seems to be contradictory. They’ll see players come into camp having “bulked up” over the summer, sometimes they are faster (because they’ve been training for speed), sometimes they’re slower (because they’ve been training for size, or some other component). They’ll automatically look to the weight change as the cause of the change in speed.

      In reality weight gain is merely a side effect of your training modality when training for speed. You can get bigger, even if it’s lean muscle mass, without getting a lot stronger, but you cannot get a lot stronger without getting bigger. The question is whether the added mass has strength, and if that strength has been properly converted into power and speed.

      The point of all this is to say don’t look too much into the numbers on the scale as the players are weighed in at these camps, it won’t tell you much about how they will perform on the ice.

      • Un Canadien errant says:

        I agree with your points, with the caveat that most junior or pro players now train under the supervision of coaches who understand this relationship. They don’t spend their days doing preacher curls, they’re doing plyometric work, focusing on strength and explosiveness. So usually, if a player comes in with greater lean body mass, it comes with increased strength and power.

        But then again, it didn’t work for David Desharnais two seasons ago, so it’s not a guaranteed win.

        • goaliehabsfan says:

          It’s becoming the norm, but you’d be surprised at the number of players that rely on personal trainers that don’t actually understand the difference between training for performance and general prep. I was helping out with the Canucks training camp last fall, and it was very apparent who had a good coach/trainer, and who didn’t. Almost everyone looked like they were in top shape, but as soon as they actually had to move or perform, it was a different story for some of them.

  61. DipsyDoodler says:

    Hey guys.

    There’s a salary cap.

    So when you assess a player you need to take into account that player’s cap hit, in addition to their stats, and of course, what is revealed by the hockey acumen that made Zenon Konopka the most desired free agent in H I/O History.

    See, Plekanec makes 40% more than DD. And that “number one centre” you keep saying DD isn’t? He makes THREE TIMES more.

    Moving. Forward.

  62. rhino514 says:

    There was an interesting article on HEOTP a few days ago (it´s still there) on their assessment that DD should be the centre to go when Galchenyuk is ready (and you get the feeling they think Chucky is ready).
    I´m actually not against advanced stats and it´s pretty obvious that, because he can only backcheck in a limited way, DD is not as valuable as Plekanec, though at this point he is superior from a purely offensive perspective.
    They start of by saying that Eller is too valuable because of his young age and two-way ability, though what his future ceiling is, nobody knows.
    If pressed, I would agree, reluctantly, that of the three DD should go, if one of them absolutely has to be moved, BUT….
    there are certain specific instances where advanced stats have their limitations, and the case of DD could well be one of those instances.
    You can calculate the sum of a player´s offensive and defensive value using statistics; but this does not necessarily mean that if you slot in said player with Pacioretty and whoever is on the first line, that there expected offensive production will follow.
    Desharnais has an uncanny playmaking ability which is what is needed for our sniper LW to be successful.
    Perhaps, from a purely staistical point of view, Plekanec is not that far off DD offensively, but there is such a thing as chemistry in hockey and I just don´t see Plekanec, at this point, having it on the first line. Pleks at this point seems to generate offense more of off of broken plays or counter attacking and causing a loose puck (and he does this well) Eller? I love him, but even if he rebounds next year I see him as more of a number two centre. Chucky COULD do it, but it´s a lot to ask of such a young kid to take charge of the first line.
    The point is, the first line could very well just not click without DD, even if he isn´t an elite centre, he knows what he has to do and who he has to feed and to my mind he does it well.
    So it all boils down to postponing the decision one more year.
    And, yes, the fact he is local is a factor in this decision, that´s just the way the cookie crumbles in our province.
    Lastly (and no one has mentioned this) I observed DD having quite a few takeaways and coming back on the play successfuly during the playoffs when it counted, though I am sure he will never get any credit for this.

    • shiram says:

      It was discussed in the last thread, if you want to read up on what people thought of it.

    • 24 Cups says:

      rhino – Keeping Glachenyuk on the left side for another year is a no brainer. It makes tons of sense in terms of the present day assets available to play LW or C.

      I totally agree with your last three sentences.

      24 Cups

    • JohnInTruro says:

      Not sure we can determine DD is superior to Pleky in offense. DD hasn’t put up a season like Pleky has in respect to points. Also, Pleky hasn’t had the wingers that DD has, tough for someone to say he is better offensively in my opinion.

  63. Chuck Kept Calm and Carey'd On ® says:

    To everyone who has signed the Rogers petition, thanks. But perhaps we’re limiting our scope by making this a Hab fan-based petition. Sure, we’ve going to have to either pay through the nose or be stuck with 32 games to watch, but the western teams are getting hosed even more. Check out the number of games that Rogers is supplying to their cable packages:

    Flames: 22
    Oilers: 22
    Jets: 22
    Canucks: 26

    Followed by:

    Senators: 29
    Habs: 32
    Leafs: 40

    I’m guessing that we should be hitting up Flames/Oilers/Jets/Canucks InsideOut for signatures, too. When this deal was announced it was all about Rogers and the NHL giving all fans more choice… except that some fans get more choice than others.

    Hab fans want choice! Sign the petition to give us back our games!

  64. Psycho29 says:

    Great Summit photo!!
    I’m in the white Habs shirt on the right.
    My head normally doesn’t look that oblong…..however after a few beers…..

  65. Garbo says:

    I love DD, always have. I think he is an amazing center and for his value, there are few equals in the league. It still baffles me that he gets such criticism, especially when the worst most people can say is that he is good, BUT only because he gets favourable wingers/matchups/zone starts/choice of strippers after the game/…

    However, despite my enduring love for DD, I really believe that Pleks is totally on another playing field. How many times did we see Pleks neutralize some of the top offensive threats in the league. He has the ability to completely shut down guys like Ovechkin, Crosby, Stamkos, etc. And when he’s not assigned those roles and allowed to simply play offense, he does just that … very well. And yes, with less favourable wingers in Gionta/Bournival/Moen!/ any other odd end MT can’t fit elsewhere in the lineup.

    Pleks’ value to the team should not be underestimated and they would be hard pressed to fill his role with someone that can bring everything he does.

    DD on the other hand is replaceable, albeit likely at a higher cap hit.

    • Luke says:

      My thought is this:

      DD is replaceable when Galchenyuk is ready, Plex when Eller is ready.

      • DipsyDoodler says:

        Replaceable by whom?

        We’ve all seen the free agent market: it’s either vastly overpriced talent (hi there David Clarkson), or other teams’ rejects (hi there Mike Ribeiro).

        By the way, is it just me or should Ribeiro not open up a restaurant called Mickey Ribs in Nashville?

        Genius no?

        Moving. Forward.

    • krob1000 says:

      fair enough..part of me also thinks there is some cap management done via players usage with some nudgenudge wink winking going between coach/gm,etc re Subban, Eller, Chucky, Beaulieu, etc. I think the management sees an opening over the next few years that if manged correctly can see the team have a very affordable young core group that is home developed, and ready made to compete…this is the BIGGEST reason I would leave thing sstatus quo up the middle this year. If Chcuky produces too much too soon he will be 6 million cap hit. Eller can be signed hopefully for 3ish and then allowed to flourish,etc,etc
      The Pk situation? scares teh bejeebers out of me….I felt good until the Hawks singed Kane and Toews…since then I have been afraid…very afraid.

    • FANHABULOUS says:

      Agree with you 100%

      “You will not regret picking me” – PK Subban.

  66. duffy says:

    I’m thinking PK should Fire his agent and him and Father negotiate his Contract and get this thing done , anyone agree ?

    • UKRAINIANhab says:

      Sounds like a plan

    • Luke says:

      There is a lot more at stake for PK than just his Professional Hockey Player Contract.

      I cannot imagine you have missed PK’s presence on Sports shows, the special series he hosted for Sportsnet, his role at the NHL awards and his celebrity ‘encounters’ with Magic and Manziel, amongst others.

      PK is building a brand. He and his father cannot manage that. He needs Meehan.

    • bwoar says:

      That’s an exceedingly bad idea for all involved.

      I know it’s a different family, different people, but I’d still point out the O’Reillys as Exhibit A on that.

    • UKRAINIANhab says:

      You guys missed the point or maybe I did?

      Pk’s dad is a big hab fan!

  67. FANHABULOUS says:

    I see that the DD vs Pleks debate is stall raging today… allow me to jump in (I’m a glutton for punishment).

    Personally, and having watched both play closely for years now, Pleks just has a more well rounded overall game. He can produce offensively (you don’t get 70pts by fluke), is consistently a 20-goal guy, plays shut-down against other teams’ top lines (no debate there from the HIO crew), kill penalties etc. Basically your solid 2nd line C, a Bergeron-lite.

    DD is mostly a one trick pony… that trick being offense. I’ll give the DD-lovers the benefit of the doubt and concede that he’s better at it than Pleks (although many already debate this stat, what with DD getting the best winger(s), offensive zone starts, PP etc). But if you’re a one-trick-offensive pony, you better put up huge numbers in that role…cause, you know, that’s your main job on a teams first line with its best forwards. Now ask yourselves: does DD produce like a 1st line center in the NHL?

    I’m not hating on DD, but I also don’t see the huge love for this guy. For those who think he’s so awesome, think about this: what would DD fetch in a trade? What is his value? Is it the same as what other 1st line centers around the league fetch? The answer is no… I doubt many GM’s are lining up to take this guy, and give us a huge return (that’s why people keep saying Pleks would fetch more in a trade).

    So… why is everyone so high on him?!

    “You will not regret picking me” – PK Subban.

    • UKRAINIANhab says:

      If Pleks and Dd fetched the same return, I think 100% of people would say trade DD… If not than well your out to lunch. I think on other Hab fan sites, it is not as much trade Plekanec! Every season…. Sorry HiO, there is a reason he has been with us for this long.

    • shiram says:

      I feel there’s a counter balance of DD praise, considering all the and unreasonable hate that was directed towards him for such a long time.
      And that said, when he’s on he’s a great producer, his last 60 games last season were very productive.
      He’s got the offensive knack.

      I happen to think he could fetch more than just a late round pick also, but the market on center seems to have died down, so now might not be the best time to think about dealing him.

      • krob1000 says:

        I hate that it comes across as hate…I don’t intend it to be that but to some extent it comes across like that becasue there is so much overrating. I really thought he was cltuch down the stretch leading into the playoffs, his shotouts were great (makes you wish he would shoot more), he worked harder in the playoffs away from the puck and was quite often the first man on the forecheck,etc,etc …I give him fullmarks for being a great overachiever and a guy who has succeeded against all odds. I just think the team would be better off if he was the one to go…personally I see no need to move any of the centers this year unless a deal comes along that knocks MB’s socks off. Chcuky is one of the teams best wingers right now….maybe if one of the kids works out then then they can do soemthing but I think we will see status quo up the middle in all likelihood.

        • shiram says:

          I was not pointing fingers at anyone, during the regular season there’s plenty of posters that come out of the woods, and share their opinion, and that’s usually when we see those “hate” posts.

          • krob1000 says:

            Sorry ..wasn’t sure if you meant me or not since Iam the one doing most of the cyber yapping today..I know I get called a dd hater on here all the time

          • shiram says:

            Your post seem quite reasonable to me.
            And it would not a discussion without different views being brought forth.

        • FANHABULOUS says:

          That’s exactly how I feel about him too… not hating on him, just feel that we’d be better off as a team if he was moved.

          “You will not regret picking me” – PK Subban.

  68. krob1000 says:

    Nashville added some serious scoring very affordably..
    Neal 5 million
    Ribeiro 1
    Roy 1 million
    Jokinen 2.5

    For 8.5 million they have 4 guys all capable of scoring between 40 and 70 points

    • 24 Cups says:

      Rob – Nashville couldn’t get any really good players (besides Neal) so they have now settled on slugs and underachievers such as Jokinen, Roy, Stalberg, Ribeiro and Volchenkov.

      They better hope that Rinne bounces back big time.

      24 Cups

      • krob1000 says:

        IMO Volchenkov is a Groges equivalent…steday guy who gives it is all and at the cost they got him for? good deal. Ribeiro and Roy are pests and not well liked…but both can play the game. Nashville is an offesne starved team and with Ribeiro getting Neal as a winger and pp partner I suspect you see Riberio back up in the 60 pt range (which is top center territory in Montreal). Roy is a guy how has his uses an jokinen? never sue what you get there…but I think his 4o some points last yea would suffice in Nashville…by committe they added a lot for very little. If you look at what that does as a whole…I think they just got a whole lot better…time will tell but I think the scarp heap thisyear was perhaps teh best it has ever been.

      • DipsyDoodler says:

        I think it is the good Jokinen (Jussi). Not the slug (Olle).

        Moving. Forward.

        • 24 Cups says:

          DD – It’s Ollie the slug. Fisher is out for six months so I guess this is why some of these moves were made. Nashville was also in on the Spezza sweepstakes and even kicked the tires on Vinny.

          Rob – I can see Ribeiro rebounding. The guy can always put up points. Things must have been really bad in Arizona to get bought out after just one year. Once a jerk, always a jerk? I figure Volchenkov is the replacement for Klein.

          24 Cups

  69. krob1000 says:

    Any Jays fans…is Adam LInd among the elite hitters in baseball? He is hitting .320 this year….of course his spots are cherrypicked and he faces primarily right handed pitching…but that doesn’t matter right?….he is one of the best hitters in the game????

    I honestly do not like trashing DD like this because I like his story, I like his work ethic, I like that he continually is trying to grow his game and that he played better than his stats in the playoffs ( but of course Pleks and Eller can’t be doing that right??? rolls eyes)..but I will not let that get in the way of reason and what has happened. People may get caught up in how Dd does a great job holding onto the puck and waiting for an opening…it looks great, it is eye catching and attention drawing…BUT…it is no more productive (as has been shown over time) than any of the other styles of Gomez, Koivu, Pleks.

    • Forum Dog says:

      You are correct that DD has been no more productive than Plekanec over the last 4 seasons, but the flip side is that he has been no less productive either. Which means that you have to go to other measures in order to figure out where they fit on the team, both now and going forward. Things like:

      Contract length;
      Cap hit;
      Current and forward looking role;
      Team strengths/weaknesses/chemistry;
      Trade value;

      Assuming the question is “who do you keep, Plekanec or DD”, I believe the answer is DD.

      Is it really likely that MTL would pony up the $5-6M/year they would need to extend Plekanec? If the answer is no, then it’s almost a foregone conclusion that he will be dealt within the next 365-500 days. Which means that we likely get one more good season out of him. Hopefully they can make it count.

      • krob1000 says:

        Age-Both in same period IMO…decline for PLeks he will probably be gone by
        Contract length- identical
        cap hit- DD wins on dollars but IMO not in value
        Current and Forward looking role- Big edge IMO to Pleks
        Team Strengths/Weaknesses-Edge Pleks….no replacement yet ready for him while I believe many could fill in DD role as they have done in past
        Trade Value-This is the only argument I can logically see for moving Pleks but the return better be great and I don’t think the time is right since Eller not ready for Pleks role yet…maybe after this year

        Who is most valuable forward on the team? IMO Pleks over everyone
        Teams best penalty killer? Pleks
        Who is better on PP? I believe Pleks based on past performance
        Who is better defensively-Pleks
        Who is faster?-Pleks
        Who is bigger?-Pleks
        Who is better scorer?Pleks
        Who is better playmaker-DD but not by much
        Who is better away from puck? Pleks
        Who is more versatile?-Pleks
        Who can play in 3rd line role if Chucky assumes top role? Pleks(however..if DD can play as he did in playoffs away from puck maybe he can manage to become a third line center with some offense…Eller still get tough assignments on D but DD ok vs second tier opposition with lesser linemates? maybe he can maybe he can’t…we know Pleks can.

        • Forum Dog says:

          Even if everything you say is true (and I would disagree with a goodly amount of it), it comes down to this:

          What are the chances that MTL invests another $20-30M in Tomas Plekanec after 2014-15? Cause that is the amount of money he and his agent are likely to demand. With the players they have coming up through the system, I do not see him staying with MTL beyond his current contract. I like Plekanec and am looking forward to him playing a good supporting role during the coming season, but the writing is on the wall. This team belongs to Pacioretty, Subban, Price, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Markov, etc., etc.

  70. DipsyDoodler says:

    The QualComp discussion taken from EOTP misses an important point, and fails to answer Paz’s question.

    The QualComp measure is the (relative) Corsi of the opponents typically faced by each player.

    But Paz’s point was that the Desharnais line would typically face the shutdown line of the other team. That shutdown line won’t necessarily have a high Corsi – in fact by virtue of being the shutdown line it may have a low Corsi – because it will spend most of its time against Stamkos, Tavares, Kessel etc …

    So for example, Plekanec and Gionta had the lowest relative Corsi on the Habs last year, as shown here:


    This doesn’t indicate that they are weak, but that they are assigned to cover the other team’s best lines.

    So, if the Stamkos line often plays against Plekanec and Gionta (or their equivalent), it will look like they are playing against Montreal’s weakest line.

    Of course, when it suits the Eye on The Prize crew, Plekanec’s stats look better than Desharnais’s (e.g. Plek faced “stronger competition”), but when it doesn’t (The Desharnais line had the best Corsi on the Habs) then there’s an explanation for why the stat can be disregarded.

    Moving. Forward.

    • Old Bald Bird says:

      Agreed. It stands to reason that the other team would put out their best D against our best O and that we would do the same. So, both centres/lines are facing tough opposition but in different ways — designed to combat their strengths or perceived strengths.

      • B says:

        Isn’t it kind of the same with faceoffs? The other teams are more likely to use their best faceoff guys in their defensive zone?

        –Go Habs Go!–

        • krob1000 says:

          in the situations they can …yes…but in the situations they cannot? DD is there….right along side Patches. Even if the ther team wins the faecoff…they are still 200 ft from Habs net..not bad for the corsi/fenwick stats.

    • HabinBurlington says:


    • on2ndthought says:

      yeah, MT isn’t much of a matchup coach, so DD often faced the top line (strength versus strength) or a checking line. For all the negative comments DD gets here, I thought he was defensively sound during the playoff push. I am also a big Pleks fan, though, consider him an elite two way guy.

      “a cannonading drive”

    • frontenac1 says:

      Disregard that stat? Way ahead of you amigo. May as well chuck the Fernwicks too. Win/Loss is where it’s at. Saludos!

    • krob1000 says:

      41 games…this is right off the bat how many games coaches get last change for…then you add in icings, pp, and times where the other team cannot match…this is where the quality of competition stat comes from. It isn’t a video game where you can match perfectly…what that Quality of COmp stat shows is that DD gets the most favourable matchups and Pleks gets the toughest. It show the offensive zone starts, it shows the qualitty of competition it shows the pp. Sure teams try to match up their best defensive palyers against PACIORETTY line(can anyone with a straight face tell me that if Pleks were centering Pacioretty and whoever that the opposition would have insisted on matching their best up against the DD line?)

      Re the best Corsi???seriously? that is BECAUSE THEY FACED LESSER COMPETITION (those best players in the game have pretty good cosri horsi crap or whatever those figures are called no?) in the most advantageous positions.
      This is mind boggling to me that this is being viewed this way…it is in fact straight up denial IMO.

      This is not a made up thing…Eller and PLeks have BOTH prodcued similarly offesnviely to DD in same role…people on here can go into denial all they want and say it is us or me who are/is being hypothetical and making up what if scenarios…it is simply not true…it happened. Pleks outscored DD in same role, Eller produced at same rate in brief time in similar role and actually outscored Dd when it mattered most, Gomez outscored DD and Koivu outscored DD…in fact over the last decade plus DD is the LEAST productive so called number 1(this team to me is only by usage..this number 1 term) the team has employed in that role….again this is not made up…check out the stats…the others have all done similar or better…and every other one of them offered a more versatile game than DD…again this isn’t fiction…you just have to be willing to look at the past.

    • bwoar says:

      Disregard em all, and pardon my flippers.

    • shiram says:

      Dismissing what they said in their piece or not, I still feel if the idea is to make room for Galchenyuk, DD should be the one to be moved, be it to the wings or via trade.

      It would not do to give the heavy minutes Plekanec plays to either of Chucky or DD, and Eller is just not there yet.

      I could see a move of Eller, but it’s annoying to think we’d let go of his combo of skills and size.

      That said, I don’t think there’s urgency in giving Chucky a C spot this year, especially considering we still are weak on the wings.

      • Un Canadien errant says:

        Funny how we think David is too small to play centre nowadays, and we want him moved to the wing, yet the Canadiens seem interested in moving Charles Hudon from the wing to centre, where he can better utilize his vision and passing ability.

        • shiram says:

          I don’t think he’s too small to play center, obviously, he’s done it at the NHL level over 250 games and has had a lot of successes in that time.

          But in the context of moving a C to make place for Chucky, he’s the one I think could most easily be replaced internally with Chucky, Eller and Plekanec down the middle.

          And AFAIK, Hudon is about the same size as Plekanec, just with less muscle on his frame.

        • Cal says:

          Hudon may be a cheap replacement for DD once DD’s contract expires in 2017.

    • Habfan17 says:

      There is so much wrong with looking only at this Corsi stat.
      Where does it tale into account the actual line each player played against? It is great to say that if Pleks for example went head to head against Stamkos and his line, it stands to reason they would have lower numbers. Take that a step further. If you are Eller and are facing a crash and bang aggressive line most nights, won’t that also have an affect n the numbers?

      Where does it take into account how many battles for the puck each lost versus won? Where does it take into account the number of hits each player had?

      There is no substitute for actually watching a player and evaluating each on their own play on the ice! Those numbers do not include all variables and therefore only tell part of the story!

      Look at the successful teams, they all have size and strength down the middle, very solid goaltending and defence.

      Bergevin is methodically changing the make up of the team to that model. If a centre has to go, I say it is a toss up between Pleks, who would have more value on the market, and DD, who simply does not give the team enough of what a number one centre needs to bring.


    • HardHabits says:

      “There are lies, damned lies and statistics.” – Mark Twain

  71. Mustang says:

    I vote that the “Scoreboard” showing the Habs losing to the Rangers, should be removed. Anyone else think it should go?

  72. bwoar says:

    Can anyone put (user)names to the faces above? For those of us who haven’t been able to attend?

  73. Mattyleg says:

    It’s just you and me, pardner.

    —Hope Springs Eternal—

  74. JohnBellyful says:

    First to Last (any second now).

Leave a Comment

You must be logged in to post a comment.