Liveblog: Sabres beat Canadiens 3-2 in OT


Give the Canadiens credit.
Exhausted from a long road trip and cross-continent travel, playing for pride, your Montreal Canadiens got a goal from David Desharnais with 3.5 second left to send a game Buffalo needed into overtime.
Tyler Myers won it for the Sabres when a whole lot of white jerseys were caught up ice.

Peter Budaj was beaten on the 36th shot he faced.


  1. TorontoHabsFan says:

    Who is that on Budaj’s helmet?

  2. HabFanSince72 says:

    I think the 8 teams in playoff position right now are the 8 teams that will be there in the end.

    Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.

  3. Mattyleg says:

    Great smarts by Markov.
    Lays it off to DD on the boards, and takes off toward the net.

    I’ve been saaaaved!!
    —Hope Springs Eternal—

  4. The HonestFan says:

    Gomez Why, why , why …..

  5. HabFanSince72 says:

    Tyler Myers. Not smart.

    Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.

  6. Mattyleg says:

    Oh yeah, Goddamn Ville Leino.
    Only ever scores against Montreal.

    I’ve been saaaaved!!
    —Hope Springs Eternal—

  7. TorontoHabsFan says:

    Cole is now four goals shy of tying his career high.

    What a great line.

  8. Chris L says:

    Markov had the pass out the defensive zone that soon led to Cole’s goal.

  9. Kimberly2u says:

    I don’t like Miller either

  10. Mavid says:

    nothing wrong with Budaj tonight!!

  11. HabFanSince72 says:

    Budaj trying to start another goaltender controversy?

    Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.

  12. Mr. Biter says:

    We could have two 30 goal scorers, one of the league’s best PK’s and not make the playoffs? Weird.

    Mr. Biter
    No Guts No Glory

    • Bill says:

      Pacioretty and Cole have about 30% of the team’s goals, soooo … not so weird.

      Full Breezer 4 Life

    • shootdapuck says:

      and a cheesey defense as soft as brie with sufficient holes to be swiss!

      The cerebral insight of PJ Stock:

      “Le problem est Markov n’a pas jouer un seul game cette annee”
      “Louis Leblanc est un kid locale”

  13. blu_blanc_rouge says:

    These guys are fantastic … Nothing to play for no pressure. What a character they have.

  14. Mavid says:

    I loved Koivu..I was broken hearted when they let him go..the only X Hab player shirt i will still wear..I kept hoping I would wake up and he would be a Hab again..but no such luck…

  15. Greg says:

    Just to wade into the discussion a bit late, yes the Habs should ABSOLUTELY have kept Saku. Is there any real discussion here? We replaced him with Gomez! No question. We miss him.

    • habbernack says:

      It’s disgusting that Gomez wears #11

      ability is what you’re capable of doing.
      attitude determines how you do it

    • 24moreCups says:

      I agree, Still miss him. He always gave it his all and loved the city of Montreal.

      I hated it when Gomez took his number 11, funny enough that’s when it really started going downhill for him.

  16. Adidess says:

    Oh and Cole scores!



    • 24moreCups says:

      Yeah me too! This season the team has shown glimpses of how good they can be and with a good core group of players, first year players being in their second season, maybe add a missing piece or two and hopefully a top 3 draft pick.

      I’d say we’re looking good next season.

  18. Adidess says:

    Anybody else worried that Toronto might be trying to steal our draft pick now that’s they’re clearly out of it? A Toronto friend told me the draft is all the rage right now on Toronto talk radio.

    Would really suck to suck this bad all season and have our hated rival outsuck you and suck away your draft pick down the stretch?

  19. captaink4life says:

    Miss Saku so much

    You will always be a Canadien in my eyes, Saku

  20. Mavid says:

    what a nifty pass….and Cole…but of course..I love him

  21. 24moreCups says:

    Wow! What a play by DD and a nice pass by Markov.

  22. Mattyleg says:

    Miller still doesn’t know what happened.

    I’ve been saaaaved!!
    —Hope Springs Eternal—

  23. boing007 says:

    Two icings in a row but they held the fort.

    Richard R

  24. habbernack says:

    #57 has to work on his skating

    ability is what you’re capable of doing.
    attitude determines how you do it

  25. HabFanSince72 says:

    Very nice pass by White.

    Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.

  26. Mavid says:

    13 to go…win every one and I we will be in..GO HABS GO

  27. Rooster says:

    Habs should have definitely kept captain k! I believe when gainey made the trade for Gomez he had already made up his mind on koivu we would be a much better team with koivu and without gomez..

  28. Ian Cobb says:

    Welcome back Mike, long trip for an old fella! Looks like we have a small shot at getting into the play offs.!

    Next year!

  29. Kimberly2u says:

    Go Habs go…we need to win this

    • kbhab4ever says:

      I want the Habs to lose=#3 pick. Till the game starts!We need a top pick and Edm’s #2.What a difference TWO top young guns would do for Habs.FLIP next year for MacKinnon! BULL MOVES.

  30. BrianSkrudland says:

    When will I learn to avoid the video tributes to Saku on YouTube? His return from cancer and his first visit to the Bell Centre in a Duck’s jersey get me every time.

    Darn onions are causing my eyes to water!

  31. The HonestFan says:

    I like Pierre but he might turn into a French Brian Burke

    • habbernack says:

      Anyone who says they would trade for Vinny should not be the GM of Mtl

      ability is what you’re capable of doing.
      attitude determines how you do it

      • kbhab4ever says:

        Did Pierre mean he would trade for the 10mil, mistake named Vinny “NOW” or when he had the interview in TB ? If so NO job interview for you Mr Pierre. I was shocked when he said it.

  32. 24 Cups says:

    Buffalo is 6-0-1 against Montreal in their last seven games.

  33. The HonestFan says:

    Agree habbernack

  34. The HonestFan says:

    Staubtz for mayor !! Ryan white & 3 big D and it’s respectability

  35. Staubitz over Engqvist, Palushaj and Nokelainen anyday.

  36. LafleurGuy says:

    Two examples of Mr. Robert Michael Gainey’s fierce loyalty to our beloved Canadiens. He gave Carbonneau a big break with the assistants job in Dallas. These days you have to cut your eye-teeth in the AHL. He mentored him for years until Mr. Carbonneau got promoted from associate head coach to head coach. But then, he saw the team in need of motivation and he probably dismissed Carbonneau with great ambivalence.
    When fans were excessive and mob-like in riding Brisebois hard, Gainey was emphatic in his defence of his non-All Star player. Called some of us yellow, and stated the team doesn’t need these types of fans. Bravo Mr. Gainey.

    “May you live in interesting times.”

  37. Steven says:

    I was just watching the “Funny Fans” thing on and noticed the Green men are really stupid.

    Bilingual Coach
    VAN [X] MTL[ ]

    Ok, I get the joke on that one, but here’s where it gets funny.

    Captain makes 3.75 million $ per goal
    VAN [ ] MTL [X]

    …Are they really dumb enough to think our captain is Scott Gomez?

  38. LafleurGuy says:

    Isn’t it interesting that Buffalo dispatched both Gaustad and Kassian as both a seller and buyer (Hodgson is the better player). Unless they pick a big ‘un with Nashville’s1st, they have downsized!

    “May you live in interesting times.”

  39. ProHabs says:

    Koivu should be playing his 1000 game tonight in a Habs uniform.

  40. aj says:

    type test (just checking).

    EDIT: Anyway, even though the Habs are having a “too little/too late” winning streak (honestly, whatever!), what we could appreciate though is some of the positives that are happening right now during this last stretch of games.

    Markov’s back (hopefully for good), Davey’s sidelined for only a game and may comeback in the lineup, Boomer and LL are improving, that’s what we as fans should look forward to.

    This team will be better next season and I don’t care if its too late b/c I would rather want to see this team win tonight than for them to lose, regardless of them not making the playoffs.

  41. joedacrabb33 says:

    why would they start Budaj after Price had a solid game…?

    Both the Habs and Leafs coach initials are RC, and they both suck 😀

    • 24moreCups says:

      We don’t want to lose out on a top 3 draft pick

    • Bill says:

      The game on Saturday finished pretty late from the Habs point of view (they live on Eastern time), and they had a long trip home.

      Also, the Habs are playing out the string. Why not give Price a break down the stretch?

      Full Breezer 4 Life

      • LafleurGuy says:

        Hope Price plays in the World Chamionships, or as it sometimes is called, the European Hockey Championship. Several benefits. A tune-up for Sochi, and opportunity to play high-stakes hockey. He would once again prove to the forgetful and the short-sighted he is a premier performer. Thanks for the ’07 Calder Cup, Carey.

        “May you live in interesting times.”

    • punkster says:

      Because they’ll need Price well rested for the cup run.


      ***Subbang Baby!!!***

  42. HardHabits says:

    I disagree with the Jackal’s assessment about Bob Gainey. He is not above reproach or criticism. One of my major points of contention with BG is that he systematically refused to restore what was once the most predominant aspect of the Habs identity since their glory days, including the work Serge Savard did with the ’86, ’89 and ’93 teams, and that is he disenfranchised the French Canadian element.

    The Habs need more than one or two token players from Quebec on it. That franco element was what made the team of lore what it was. Gainey failed when it came to that part of the team’s character and identity. Making a play for Lecavalier was not enough. The Habs missed the boat at the draft.

    The Habs need a core of players from Quebec, not a bunch of Americans. The Q can’t produce. Start investing and developing there.

    Habs stands for Habitants. Canadiens stands for French Canadians.

    • Mr. Biter says:

      So How much extra should we pay French Canadian players (since they are “special”) to come and play with the Habs or pick up inferior players because they are “French Canadian”? No wonder the Habs organization is going down hill when first the G.M. , then the coach must be born in Quebec to be truly “French Canadian” and now you also want the majority of players to be “French Canadian”. No doubt you also think TT is a racist because he belongs to the Tea Party.

      Mr. Biter
      No Guts No Glory

      • LafleurGuy says:

        Agree with you on many occasions, but beg to differ. To pretend the Tea Party is as non-racist as say the Green Party, is like saying the Nazi youth movement is non-racist. I am weak, and could not desist from speaking politics on this mostly fun forum. I apologize.

        “May you live in interesting times.”

        • Mr. Biter says:

          Hey no problem, but before you call the tea party racist or violent, please let me know of any violent or racist act any tea party person has comitted as say the “Wall Street Occupiers” have done. The main street media blows anything about the Tea Party out of proportion in their support for Obama. But I’ll stay away from politics as this is a fun hockey site, but in ending,wanting a team run and composed of only French Canadian does sound racist to me. Sorry.
          BTW these are “interesting times indeed”.

          Mr. Biter
          No Guts No Glory

    • Bill says:

      He didn’t say Gainey was above criticism: said he didn’t deserve to be insulted. There is a difference.

      I don’t know that more Quebecois players would help the Habs all by itself, but I’m willing to try anything. I do think it’s probably a bit more complicated than that though!

      Full Breezer 4 Life

    • CalgaryHab says:

      Most french players don’t want to play in Montreal because of pressures put on them by french media and french fans. Even so, if the had the best french players in the league they would still be medicore at best – Quebec just hasn’t produced the talent they used too (Lecavalier? are you kidding me?) as compared to the rest of the world – at least on an elite level.
      Montreal’s biggest problems are: poor trading, poor drafting and having to pay extra to lure players here because of the culture created by media and fans – the tax situation doesn’t help either.

    • punkster says:

      You may be making a valid point though you have misread Jackal’s comment. He talks of those who insult BG.

      ***Subbang Baby!!!***

      • HardHabits says:

        Not really Dave. He basically likens criticizing Gainey to insulting him. He doesn’t leave any room open for either. He is even trying to rewrite history with the Gomez trade.

  43. HabinBurlington says:

    Hey Bri, let me know if you haven’t found a link to the game from Saturday, I can put my VHS copy of it in the mail.

  44. kempie says:

    Congratulations to our friend Saku Koivu, playing in his 1000th game tonight.

    • Bill says:

      Still love Saku, and I’m glad for him. Most of the guys on this site don’t think his number should be retired: I don’t get that.

      Here are the names of the players who scored more points as a Hab than Saku: Geoffrion, Shutt, Lemaire, Cournoyer, Robinson, Richard, Richard, Beliveau, and Lafleur.

      Here are the names of the players who served as captain of Canadiens longer than Saku: Beliveau.

      Full Breezer 4 Life

  45. twilighthours says:

    There really is no need to worry about pax or subban getting dealt. I’ll give pg enough credit that he wouldn’t do that.

  46. HabinBurlington says:

    My compliments to the posters on this thread, some great insightful conversation.

    BG will always be one of my hero’s and not just as a player. He restored respect to the franchise. To lose one’s wife and then one’s daughter, this man has been kicked in the teeth in a cruel way and still put the franchise on his back. Yes errors were made, as The Jackal put it, and I had posted a similar message a few weeks back, he essentially admitted it by stepping down.

    His current role is an advisor he is not our current GM despite many still blaming him for current moves. I suspect the winds of change will blow through and perhaps he no more will have that office and role, but I don’t mind if Geoff Molson still has the odd chat with the man about business.

    • CharlieHodgeFan says:

      I was away for a few days, withut even computer access, so this is a return to HIO. It’s one of the first times I’ve enjoyed the threads without reserve, maybe in years. There are always good posts here, but since the season has sunk, the level of discussion here has really come up. I think a lot of the more thoughtful posters had run off, given the levels of unrealistic negativity. It’s pleasant to read realistic, sensible voices here again.

  47. TorontoHabsFan says:

    Since refusing to visit the White House on January 23rd, Tim Thomas stats are:

    8W-8L 2.73 GAA .882 Save %

    Think he’s been a bit distracted?

  48. Hobie Hansen says:

    Ugh, when will the regular season end already.

    Sure it’s nice to see Markov back on the ice or Pacioretty continue to increase his goal total or a young player get some ice time but it sucks having no playoffs to look forward to!

    Get this god awful mess of a season over and done with and lets get to July 1st already. When ever I hear the Canadiens name or someone tries to strike up a conversation about hockey it’s just depressing and embarrassing.

    There is no question in my mind that this team, without one change, could get back to taking teams like Boston to seven games or knocking out the Penguins and Capitals as early as next season.

    That is taking into consideration Markov will play 75-82 games, Gionta is healthy and a new coach with a solid system and work ethic is in place.

    And the season after (2013/14) we’ll be even better. Start adding our impressive list of prospects to the mix, including our early pick this July, things have the potential to round out very nicely.

    Pacioretty, Subban and Price are all star players, period! Subban in my opinion will have a massive year next year especially if he has Markov on the PP with him. Price will have a better defensive structure in front of him and could again lead the league in wins. And you can pencil Pacioretty in for at least 30 goals.

    Anyways, the fans and media decided they wanted to toss the season out the window by running Martin out of town. Well you got your wish and I hope everyone enjoys the summer before we get back on track next year.

    • ed lopaz says:

      Hobie – I agree with most of your post until the last bit.

      The habs are a business with an estimated value which exceeds 500 million dollars.

      they are a business that generates around 200 million annually in revenue at the Molson Center, and countless millions worldwide in licensed product sales and TV etc.

      How could you possibly believe that the “fans and media” could
      influence such a big business on such an important decision as to who should not coach this team??

      You should give Gauthier some credit.

      He has been near the top of his field for several years, earning a huge salary and bonuses.

      By blaming the fans and the media you are not giving the true decision maker the credit he deserves.

      • Hobie Hansen says:

        I think outside pressure had a substantial amount to do with Martin’s firing. It seemed to me that Gauthier was feeling the heat and the easiest way for him to deflect some attention was to listen to fans’ and media’s cry to dump Martin.

        I actually didn’t mind the firing but to do it the middle of the season and replace him with a rookie coach was completely ridiculous. I knew the season was 100% over right then and there.

        It should have been done last summer or at the end of this season if we were to have any chance at the playoffs.

        Martin may have annoyed some people but his system was tight, accountable and it wasn’t his fault Gauthier left him with nothing on the back end.

        Martin got the maximum out of his roster possible and he was our only chance of making the playoffs.

        • ed lopaz says:

          if Gauthier acted hastily and tried to deflect pressure, then he was not doing his job very well.

          which is what I think you are implying.

          I agree that if Martin was going to be fired it should have been done last summer.

          I think Gauthier is done.

          • Hobie Hansen says:

            Gauthier makes one good decision followed by a bad one. We need better than that.

          • HabinBurlington says:

            That is a great way to put it Hobie, one foot forward one back, and maybe the odd one sideways which none of us understand. hehe

          • Mr. Biter says:

            Coach’s allways get fired before the G.M. as he is trying to save his ass. Bye, Bye Goat.

            Mr. Biter
            No Guts No Glory

  49. secretdragonfly says:

    Radulov back?

    Can someone more knowledgeable than myself comment on whether he would be eligble to play for Nashville (should they make the playoffs) considering this move is after the trade deadline?

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      I think this will need to be adjudicated, so I don’t think anyone ‘knows’ this, but the fact that Mr. Radulov belongs to them, he wasn’t a free agent like Mr. Nabokov last season or Marty Turco this season will play in their favour.

      How about it NHL? No fighting, just hockey?

      • Bill says:

        I believe that as a player already under contract before the deadline, he would be allowed to play in the playoffs. According to the article the NHLPA is willing to waive the waiver process in this case …

        Full Breezer 4 Life

    • ProHabs says:

      Wow, they are going to be tough to beat in the playoffs. I think he would be allowed, he has been under contract with them all year, almost like a Markov thing. Except instead of being hurt, he has been in the K but still under contract.

      • HabinBurlington says:

        I think the key for Radulov is that his contract was signed prior to the recent NHL transfer agreement (or whatever it is called) which is now in place between NHL and KHL. I am probably screwing up the terminology, but I read it on the interweb somewhere.

  50. Bripro says:

    It’s official. The Habs have used 3 of their allowed 4 call ups between now and the end of the year.
    Contrary to what the Canadiens had announced last week, the call up of both Palushaj and Geoffrion were not considered emergencies and therefore count against their 4, as does LL, who is now on permanent call up.
    They have one left, with 13 games to go.

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      Interesting. I didn’t think there was any room for interpretation and error. You have a 23 man roster, a player is injured and cannot play, you replace him with an AHL player, he takes the place of the injured player on the roster.

      Does anyone know the legalities regarding this?

      How about it NHL? No fighting, just hockey?

      • Bripro says:

        The NHL permits each team to carry up to 23 players on its active roster, subject to the constraints of the salary cap. However, it also requires a minimum of 2 goaltenders, 6 defenceman and 12 forwards on its active roster at all times. A player is not considered on the active roster if they have been placed on the Injured Reserve List or are suspended by the NHL.
        If the team falls below any of these minimum categories, they are permitted to recall a player without subjection to waivers in order to meet the NHL minimum roster requirements. However, the player must be returned to the affiliate when the player he is replacing returns from their inactive status.
        Following the trade deadline, they’re allowed a maximum of four call ups. Hence the reason for taking LL off the emergency call up list, making him a permanent on the roster until the end of the year. His NHL salary, whatever it might be, will go against the cap.

        EDIT: This from TSN
        “The rule only applies while the AHL affiliate team is in play and lifts as soon as their season ends, but it remains an ongoing concern for the National Hockey League.

        Burke and the majority of NHL teams would happily promote their prospects for short-term duty after the trade deadline if the rule was elminated, while contending teams would utilize the flexibility to keep their roster filled.”

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      Some answers, but nothing definite.

      Unattributed (Maple Leafs discussion board):

      There are by-rules within the NHL that states that if a team is unable to field a full 20 player game roster, players in the AHL can be called up to the NHL level on an emergency call-up basis without having to pass through re-entry waivers or just waivers in general. They are given a 10-game float date in which if they are not returned to the AHL within 10 games, the waiver rule is reinstated.

      How about it NHL? No fighting, just hockey?

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      Also unattributed, from a Sportsnet discussion thread:

      During the NHL regular season, a team may have a maximum of 23 players on the active roster, except for the period from December 19 to December 27, during which no player may be assigned to the AHL or ECHL, and after the NHL trade deadline.

      After the NHL trade deadline, an NHL team is limited to four non-emergency callups from their minor league affiliates until their AHL or ECHL affiliate’s season has ended (that is, callups from the AHL or ECHL who are not replacing injured players). Additions to the NHL roster, however, can come from players on the reserve list (see below) who leave collegiate, major junior, or European hockey clubs to sign entry-level contracts. Examples of the latter include Jack Johnson, who left Michigan late in the spring 2007 semester and jumped directly to the Los Angeles Kings for the end of the 2006–07 season, and Marcus Kruger, who was signed by the Chicago Blackhawks off of its reserve list; Kruger left Djurgårdens in Sweden to sign his entry-level contract and was immediately dressed by Chicago.

      Following the end of a team’s AHL or ECHL affiliate’s season, unlimited callups are allowed, provided that a player is signed to one of its 50 contract slots.

      How about it NHL? No fighting, just hockey?

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      Emergency Recall

      We’ve become very familiar with this one lately with Joey Mac. The NHL permits each team to carry up to 23 players on its active roster, subject to the constraints of the salary cap. However, it also requires a minimum of 2 goaltenders, 6 defenceman and 12 forwards on its active roster at all times. A player is not considered on the active roster if they have been placed on the Injured Reserve List or are suspended by the NHL.

      If the team falls below any of these minimum categories, they are permitted to recall a player without subjection to waivers in order to meet the NHL minimum roster requirements. However, the player must be returned to the affiliate when the player he is replacing returns from their inactive status.

      (Note: This is why Calgary was forced to play with less than the minimum required players last season. They had a number of players who were hurt but were not on the Injured Reserve, and the team did not have cap space to recall additional players to fill their lineup. Had the team placed players on the IR, they could have used the Emergency Recall to call up enough players to fill out the minimum lineup (again subject to the cap), but then they wouldn’t have been allowed to use the players until they completed the minimum period on the IR.)

      How about it NHL? No fighting, just hockey?

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      So the final answer seems to be, for a recall to be an ’emergency recall’, there has to be a corresponding player being put on IR to clear the roster spot, and to bring the team below league minimums in term of roster size. This didn’t happen when Scott Gomez and Aaron Palushaj were hurt, both were only out for a couple of games and didn’t end up on IR, hence the regular callup instead of emergency.

      I don’t think it will hurt us too much. The farm team is bare. Their season will end soon and they won’t make the playoffs, and then we can call up whoever we want. And it won’t affect our playoff position.

      How about it NHL? No fighting, just hockey?

  51. Marc10 says:

    Jackal is right about BG. He’s a standup guy and a true warrior. He’s been dealt a very cruel hand in losing a daughter and he still carried on and tried his best to help the club.

    But on the face of it, the club he built simply cannot compete. What Halak and Cams masked by their stellar play two years ago, was a club that’s too small and too fragile to win in Gary’s Big Bad League. And that’s his fault.

    It’s not easy finding a big first line center. We were spared his greatest blunder when the NHL rejected Subban, Pleks, etc for Lecavalier… Thank F Christ! BG should count himself lucky the League refused that trade, because he would have forever damaged his rep beyond repair had he made that move.

    There’s also his inability to get any kind of return for many UFAs. Does that make him a bad guy? No. He’s still a rock. I’ll always be grateful for how he stopped the jerks from scapegoating Breezer, restored pride and made this place a sought after destination for free agents despite the high taxes.

    But it is what it is… We’re just not there. Maybe next year with a few tweaks…

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      I always want to note that Bob Gainey tried to build a fast, skilled team, not a small and fragile team. They turned out to be small and vulnerable because the NHL stated one thing, that wide-open, offensive, entertaining hockey was going to be the norm post-lockout, but didn’t follow through on their promises. At worst, Mr. Gainey took a risk that it really was a new era in the League and that we were finally coming out of the Dark Ages, and his roll of the dice came up snake eyes.

      How about it NHL? No fighting, just hockey?

      • twilighthours says:

        Another excellent point.

      • HabinBurlington says:

        Agree 100% Well said UCE!

      • ffenliv says:

        You’re missing something key here, UCE: fast, wide-open and exciting doesn’t mean ‘a team full of small players can compete’. There are a lot of skilled, faster bigger guys (Erik Cole, for example) in the league.

        Curiously, we signed one in the summer and he has been better than most of us expected, particularly when paired with Max.

        The old trope that the NHL screwed the Habs by not living up to a promise is a load of nonsense. The game now seems to be going in reverse, with more clutch and grab than ever, likely in an attempt to curb concussions by slowing things down a bit.

        Gainey built a fast, wide-open team, but failed to do it with appropriate size.

    • twilighthours says:

      That’s pretty much the shape of things.

    • rhino514 says:

      Did the NHL really reject that trade? I thought it was just rumours or at worst a possible deal and one of the clubs changed their minds…..

  52. habsfan0 says:

    The First Niagara Center, formerly known as HSBC Arena and Marine Midland Arena…all these names are confusing me.

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      We can all just refuse to go along and call it the Aud, as we should. Especially if it was built on taxpayer dollars.

      How about it NHL? No fighting, just hockey?

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      From Wikipedia, which lists Erie County as the owner, so we are on solid ground to call it the Aud or the new Aud:

      The First Niagara Center, formerly known as HSBC Arena and Marine Midland Arena, is a multi-purpose indoor arena located in downtown Buffalo, New York, USA. It is the largest indoor arena in Western New York, seating 18,690 fans in its normal configuration, and was constructed primarily for the Buffalo Sabres of the National Hockey League, who have called the arena home since its opening in 1996, when it replaced the now-demolished Memorial Auditorium.

      How about it NHL? No fighting, just hockey?

    • 24 Cups says:

      One thing you can count on – they won’t be calling it the Maid of the Mist (although that franchise still has the rights to the American side of the Falls).

  53. Chuck says:

    Hey Gerald, this Hab fan in Burlington can indeed come out and play tonight. I like your suggestion of Gator Ted’s… see you at the bar!

    Being a Hab fan is like buying real estate: only over the long-haul will you appreciate the true value of your investment.

  54. Habitant in Surrey says:

    …I think We should be given a few of the Cincinnati Cyclones a look-see …give Lawson a go ! …Budaj and Carey look like they are in need of a break for a few games …take out PK, and replace Him with Alex Henry

    …how do You spell Galchenyuk ??? …with a single Yuk …or a YukYuk 🙂

    HIS’ Official Habs’ Fan Theme Song: Morrissey ‘There is a light that never goes out’

    Habitant means PASSIONATE HOCKEY

  55. habsfanforever7631 says:

    Thanks for posting the link, waw was that interview cool or what.
    It shows how mature he is, and how much he loves Montreal.
    I also like that in every interview he never misses an opportunity to credit DD or cole.
    I hope he plays for a long, long time in Montreal, because with Price and subban he is one of our best players.
    He is also becoming one of my favorite players on the team.

    • Bill says:

      Gauthier needs to sign all three long-term. What a core.

      Full Breezer 4 Life

    • Bripro says:

      If PG is still here and for some brain-dead reason, he decides to trade Max, that will be the most tragic gaff since they let John Leclair get away.

      • habsfanforever7631 says:

        If PG trades Pacioretty or Subban I don’t know what I’m going to do, but what I know is that the fun in watching the Habs is going to be flushed out.

        • Bripro says:

          There’s not much you can do, or anyone for that matter.
          But I doubt it. He’s too good, too young, and RFA status next year, but I’m sure they’ll lock him up.

          • habsfanforever7631 says:

            There’s probably going to be a protest, lol.
            But yeah your rite PG is not going to trade him away.

  56. Bill says:

    It’s surprising Desharnais doesn’t get more respect. I say this as one of the people who actually doesn’t give him enough. I really don’t know why.

    I guess I think of him as a one-dimensional offensive player who has achieved scoring success through a favourable assignment playing on an entirely offensive line with two great wingers. That’s probably not fair though; Pacioretty is the guy’s biggest fan, and you have to respect his opinion.

    If DD were six inches taller, I have to admit I probably would not question him a bit. That means I suck. I am not evaluating him fairly: but I can’t seem to change my mind on it! I know there are plenty on this site who probably feel the exact same way. What’s up with that??

    Full Breezer 4 Life

    • habsfanforever7631 says:

      I think that’s why Pacioretty always credits him because he knows that DD doesn’t get much love.
      And yeah your rite, if DD was 6 inches taller we would all say that we finally found our first line center.

    • shiram says:

      I too thought little of him this season, figuring Eller would take the #2 spot behind Plekanec, what a season this was…
      DD is a hard worker and seems to be driven to improve his game all the time, that’s what I gathered when I read up on him, and that’s the best attitude for a player out to prove the world wrong.

    • Bripro says:

      IMO, he has the greatest vision of all forwards. You’ll see him using the reflection of the glass, often.
      He’s very good at avoiding cheques along the boards, and in open ice….he shows great stick-handling ability. That is not one-dimensional.
      He has a very accurate shot but prefers the role of play-maker.
      And it’s done wonders for his line mates.
      So is he under-appreciated? Absolutely.
      Give him another year or two, and a retiring Marty St Louis will have his NHL successor.

    • krob1000 says:

      because the team sucks…until then his stats mean as much as Grabovski’s…
      any top 6 that has a center paired with the top 2 wingers and first unit pp time all year should put up close tot he numbers he has. The interesting thing is he is only a second year guy….I know he is older but he seems to be improving still which could be very good for us moving forward. I wrote him off becuase I didn;t think he had the speed to compensate for his size…but he is far faster this year than last and even moreso from the year before…I thought he was too old to improve his speed that much. He has impressed the heck out of me…I still have my doubts of course but I see more things to be excited about than to worry about lately anyway.

    • Un Canadien errant says:


      Why do I love David Desharnais?

      A significant quote of his is telling: when he was first called up and the media were getting to know him, he explained that at every level of hockey that he’s ever played at, when he first joins the team he concentrates on defence and the role he’s supposed to play within the coach’s system. He said he did that to gain the confidence of the coach, and it would inevitably lead to more icetime and more offensive opportunities. I remember thinking what a smart kid he was, especially compared to Andrei Kostitsyn, for example.

      He’s not a strong guy, but he makes up for it in quickness and agility. His assist on the Mike Cammalleri goal in Ottawa was telling, how quickly he pounced on the puck and wheeled around the net, no opponent could move in time to stop him. Along the boards, he gets low enough that opponents have a hard time getting leverage against him or getting a clean hit. He uses timing and a quick stick to steal pucks from bigger, stronger opponents all the time.

      I may be partial to him since I remember how hard it was to play against quick shifty forwards. Sure, if the opposing defencemen can get a good lick on him it’ll hurt, but they seldom do. Unlike Scott Gomez, he has a variety of moves, and goes to the net or slot without hesitation, and is effective once there.

      His linemates love him and want to play with him, and pout when they’re taken off his line. Max claims he’s the best player he ever played with.

      This is his first full season in the NHL. He’s still young, he will improve, get acclimated to the speed, get stronger and fitter still.

      The fact that he’s French-Canadian is a nice bonus. The Canadiens have a few competitive advantages. One is that they have a huge pool of hockey players who grew up idolizing the Habs, and will bleed bleu-blanc-rouge if they ever get a chance to don the jersey. I think we should use that to our advantage.

      How about it NHL? No fighting, just hockey?

    • twilighthours says:

      No worries, bill. There’s a whole sub-culture who make it their business to find ways – even invent new ways – to rip desharnais. They will never admit they were wrong. But the rest of us saw the light: he’s legit.

  57. The Jackal says:

    I notice some people have something against Bob Gainey. It probably has something to do with the Gomez trade, but taking a few steps back to look at the bigger picture, no one in their right mind should be insulting BG. First of all, BG is the embodiment of magnanimous, he was a great player for the club and won here. Then as a GM he tried hard to make the team better, you could tell BG cared, and when he realized he was not doing the best job he stepped down. He made some good moves, most importantly bringing Max Pac and Gorges in, but he also made some bad moves, like losing patience with the 2008 roster and blowing it up, ultimately acquiring Gomez. Some people attack BG now as if he is the reason the team hasn’t done too well… you forget after the blow up the Habs made it to the east final, a year later they proved the hardest challenge the Bruins had to overcome, faring better than any other team they played. And now, for various reasons, the team is struggling. Many blame PG, but still many blame BG, insulting the man and asking for his head… there is no reason for animosity against someone like BG, who was a Hab through and through. All GMs make good and bad moves, PG will soon be judged, and Gainey judged himself and decided his time was up, that takes courage to admit. Next time you are lamenting the state of the Habs, remember that BG tried his best, and insulting him the way some people have done is beneath us as Habs fans.

    • Bill says:

      I would never insult, impugn, or disrespect him. And I hesitate to question his moves, because his fingernail clippings contain more hockey knowledge than everyone on this site combined.

      But man, that Gomez trade sure did suck. I’m sure he would admit it himself … privately.

      Full Breezer 4 Life

      • The Jackal says:

        Haha, probably… but he took a risk and unfortunately for us it did not work out very well. Still, I’m sure he would be the first to admit to that like you said.

    • Un Canadien errant says:

      I think we can respectfully critique some of his hockey decisions, but no one is ever allowed to impugn the man’s character and effort or insult him.

      How about it NHL? No fighting, just hockey?

    • twilighthours says:

      I agree with him for blowing up that crappy 2008-09 team that rolled over.

      It was just the re-build that didn’t really work out.

      I love the man and would stil have him as my GM in a heartbeat.

  58. LafleurGuy says:

    Interesting recent article that featured and interview with Florida’s Dale Tallon. I’m sorry I’m terrible in computer tasks, and can’t give the link. Tallon was being given a large amout of credit for Chicago’s 2010 championship, and he stated one of his stratagems was to interview each of the roster players and pose the question, want to stay or leave? He then accomodated the player’s wishes to a large extent. Success has followed Michael Ryder, Mikael Grabovski, and even Sergei Kostitsyn and Maxim Lapierre since each of their departures from Montreal. I can only think of Alexei Kovalev as a succesful pick-up of another team’s ” problem player.” I hope that a reversal of this trend comes about. Brad Staubitz, who I see as a plus, was criticized for not playing in an intimidating fashion more of the time in Minneapolis. Hopefully, we become one of the teams that picks up players like Michael Grabner, or Dan Cleary, or Alan Ladd when they are “rejected” by their current teams.

    “May you live in interesting times.”

  59. j0nHABS says:

    I thought it was Budaj playing?

  60. krulmadden says:

    Cole will pot 2 tonight. I think this game will be a little closer and a lot more physical. Sabres are very nervous about their playoff hopes. In their last 5 games, they’re 3-2 with 2 of those wins 3 point games. I expect a lot of tight grips on sticks and a lot chirping.

  61. Rad says:

    Don’t worry boys, our intrepid Habitants will lose tonight. Buffalo’s been winning lately with strong goaltending, good D, and just enough scoring. They’re not going to lose in their own barn to the cellar-dwelling Habs.

    • Chuck says:

      “They’re not going to lose in their own barn to the cellar-dwelling Habs.”

      That’s the exact same line that the Canucklehead fans were chirping Saturday afternoon.

      Being a Hab fan is like buying real estate: only over the long-haul will you appreciate the true value of your investment.

  62. 24 Cups says:

    So who’s the bigger disappointment, Scott Gomez (37/2/9/11) or Ville Leino (58/6/15/21)?

    • habs03 says:

      Scott AINEC, you expect much more from Gomez, Leino, everyone laughed when the Sabres gave him that contract.

    • shiram says:

      Leino never achieved all that much, apart from one great playoff run.
      Gomez well he got those 2 cups, 3 seasons of 70 or more points, one at 84 points.
      So my vote goes to Gomez, at the very least his contract ends sooner.

      Gomez got his 900th game in the NHL just 2 games ago…

    • Bill says:

      Did anyone really have high expectations for Leino? Apart from Regier, I mean.

      Still, his numbers are pathetic.

      Full Breezer 4 Life

    • ebk says:

      He was such a good hockey player at one time. Was actually one of my favorite players. Not sure what happened to him the last few years.

      • 24 Cups says:

        Earl – In a roundabout way Gomez is just like the Habs. He has a great history that is highlighted by two Cup wins as well as a Callder trophy. Alas, the past four years have seen his game go into an unexplainable decline.

        The Habs also love to live on their past history (after all, nostalgia is a growth industry). Truth be told, they have mostly been adrift since 1995.

        Glad to hear from one of HI/O’s founding members. I trust that all is well with you and yours.

        • ebk says:

          Steve – Gomez(now) reminds me of Ron Flockhart. Was going to say Russ Courtnall but Courtnall was a decent hockey player.

          Plus he was such a good 2-way hockey player but now, he’s either lacking the motivation or desire to keep playing that way or his skill level has dropped off drastically.

      • krob1000 says:

        I don’t think he handles the pressure well… I think he is a fun loving guy who enjoys the paly and can play…but I think the more serious he needs to be the more he fails…reminds me a bit of the Higgins issues. Another guy who fizzled in Montreal and New York in vancouver…where there is still pressure but just a smidgen less because he is not one of the top 3 forwards there and is not expected to be.

        • ebk says:

          Higgins was a pretty productive hockey player in Montreal. At least until his last season there. Seems to be back to the player he was but it’s been a few years.

          But he’s no top 3 on any contending team, you are correct about that.

  63. Bripro says:

    Since I passed out through the 1st period on saturday, I’m looking for an edited version of the game.
    Not too lucky so far, but I did find the after-hours interview with Max.
    He’s quite the young man.

    • Bripro says:

      Indeed. If this kid puts some more weight on, he’s gonna be another hard one to stop, just like DD.

    • Bill says:

      That is a nice piece: Godin shows a lot of appreciation. You have to worry about the Habs developing another undersized, skilled forward, but sometimes – pretty rarely – you encounter a player whose small size doesn’t matter. It’s very rare though: I’m thinking Pat Verbeek, Theo Fleury, Martin St. Louis. Those are small guys who have superior talent as well as that “eye of the tiger” inner drive.

      Gallagher might be another one. Let’s hope!

      Full Breezer 4 Life

    • HabinBurlington says:

      Great piece, even in google translate english. Thanks Shiram, this guy is a true little warrior.

      He will be great to pick up after Gionta.

  64. krob1000 says:

    Pens have won 9 straight….i would bet Crosby could have palyed but will not return until after a loss…he is too much of a team guy and also superstitious

    • 24 Cups says:

      Rob – You gotta love the Pens, especially in light of the major injuries that they have had to overcome.

      Forgetting the usual “anyone can win once they make the playoffs” bs, it would appear that the top six contenders would be New York, Boston, Pittsburgh, Vancouver, St Louis and Detroit. If Crosby and Letang return, it just might be perfect timing for the Pens to win another Cup.

      • ebk says:

        hey fellas , long time no chat.
        Not sure about the penguins, one of our resident GM’s in waiting was lambasting them as not a franchise you would want to model your team after, so I’d take their success with a grain of salt. Must be mostly a product of luck

  65. durocher says:

    If DD can go, who sits? I hope Gomez.


  66. ed lopaz says:

    We are still getting posts about “injuries” as the excuse, and

    Gauthier’s job being safe because of injuries.

    Yet, Gauthier fired Martin.

    So in my books, its either one or the another.


    1) Gauthier made a terrible mistake firing his coach when in fact injuries were the main problem with the team – and players having bad seasons – but either way not a coaching issue


    2) Gauthier made the right decision firing the coach because he believed that injuries and some bad seasons by key players could be overcome by bringing in a rookie, untested, AHL coach, who he knew would have to face up to the fact that he spoke no French.

    You can choose #1 or #2 – its up to you.

    Either way Gauthier was dead wrong and deserves the blame and deserves to take full responsibility for one of the most terrible seasons in the 100+ history of this franchise.

    Gauthier will be fired the day after the season ends.

    • HabFanSince72 says:

      Oh come on. Martin had to go, injuries or no injuries.

      I agree injuries aren’t the major cause of our bad season (after all our key players Price, PK, Gorges, Plex, DD, Cole and MaxPac wer not injured. Neither was Cammi very much.

      On the other hand if Markov had started the season we would perhaps be in 8th place right now.

      Lots of things went wrong, injuries being one of them.

      For me the main reason to fire Gauthier and Gainey is that in a cap system you cannot keep letting young players leave for nothing.

      Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.

      • HabinBurlington says:

        How big of a reason was JM that we kept letting young players go? I don’t dispute that this indeed was happening, but seemed to me that JM had a great deal of influence as it related to which players he could work with or get through to.

        I am not a big fan of PG’s in the least, and would be fine with him fired, but only if an excellent replacement is chosen. To change for the sake of change is not good enough.

        I am hopeful that whether it is RC back next year or a new coach, that this quick trigger to say, this kid is a problem and I don’t want to play him will stop.

        Every team has to be patient with some young players who need time to mature, and this team especially needs to learn that.

        • HabFanSince72 says:

          JM is largely responsible for Lats, Lappy (the only one I have no regrets about), and SK74.

          However the problem goes further back.

          Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.

          • HabinBurlington says:

            And perhaps now AK. Granted we got a return for him, but to me I always felt that JM didn’t know how to handle him either.

            Agree it happened earlier, and that was also during our coaching carousel years.

            I think PG bears some responsibility, but to me, it is coaches going into GM’s offices saying I can’t get through to this kid, get rid of him.

        • Habsolutely says:

          so true. Habs need to have a better way of managing and evaluating their talent. We’ve all seen the steady stream of Habs prospects over the years who go on to other teams and develop into solid NHL’ers. The Habs have to be better with their assets.

      • ed lopaz says:

        Last year we put up 96 points without Markov.

        and yet, Markov is the 1 injury, the big injury, that I would actually accept as a potential difference maker.

        Gauthier lost this team when he tried to build it up last summer.

        His decisions on defence were – in retrospect – an unmitigated disaster; the exception being Emelin, who MArtin did not even want to play on many nights.

        His decision to bring in Cunneyworth was laughable.

        I actually like Cunneyworth, but he should never have been given this job – never!!

        • shiram says:

          Diaz was another good D move, considering that he was supposed to be playing in Hamilton this season, he had done good.

          • ed lopaz says:

            Sorry Shiram – but I never heard that.

            Diaz is 25 years old.

            Diaz was advertised as the best d-man in his league, and ready to play a full shift in the NHL.

            He is too small and too soft to clear the front of the net, nor can he win physical battles along the boards.

            Not a good fit for this team.

            @ Burlington below:

            I 100% agree. the mistakes on defence actually cost us so dearly that we could not recover.


            @ Shiram and Grim Jim below re: Diaz

            I always thought that Gauthier scouted Diaz and that Gauthier would want to keep him in Montreal.

            But I can accept your posts and agree that he might have been heading to Hamilton to at least start the season.

            We needed an experienced, bigger d-man and he was not the answer, but your points are well taken.

          • HabinBurlington says:

            He is a nice player, and a pleasant surprise. But on a team that already lacked big dman, he was another player of the same ilk as we already had. Then to top it off, when he finally added Dmen, he again added more offensive oriented Dmen and not a big strong defensive dman. That I think was PG’s biggest mistake this past offseason, along with not dealing with our 4th line centre issue until it was too late. Bringing in Nokia, which wasn’t much of an upgrade.

          • shiram says:

            He’s a rookie on an entry level 2 way deal.
            If it were not for injuries, he’d have played in Hamilton.
            D would have been Subban/Gill/Spacek/Gorges/WeberEmelin.

            Burly : He tried to get a bonafide 4th line center, but Philly was lying, and Blair Betts was hurt.
            Ditto for that bruising Dman, Jeff Woywitka was claimed on waivers after we aquired him.

          • GrimJim says:

            @ed lopaz – “who told you…”
            1) his two-way entry level contract (with no “go home if assigned to AHL” clause)
            2) The fact that there were eight players with NHL experience on the depth chart ahead of him on Sept. 1, plus one with a “go home if assigned to AHL” clause
            3) The difference between “We are very pleased to have reached an agreement with Raphael Diaz, who we strongly believe has all the attributes to play in the NHL. Raphael is a defenseman with excellent offensive and defensive skills, who constantly improved his play over the years. We look forward to seeing him at training camp,” said Canadiens General Manager Pierre Gauthier.
            and “We are very pleased to have reached an agreement with Alexei Yemelin. Alexei is a steady, physical defenseman with strong skating ability. The experience he has acquired in the KHL over the past few years will make for a smooth transition to the NHL,” said Canadiens general manager Pierre Gauthier.
            IMO, and reading between the lines, that says Emelin is ready to jump this year and Diaz will be ready some day.

        • habitat says:

          Markov should continue his rehab in my humble opinion. At the most, test the knee a few games and call it a season ( personally I would keep him on the bench). Eller, DD and Leblanc should get the ice time, not Pleks or certainly not Gomez. Bring up Tinordi and Nathan B. for a few games, just to get a flavor of the NHL game. I fear we will win a few games and it will absolutely screw us in the lottery/draft. Dumb management moves continue to plague this team -ugh!

    • shiram says:

      Martin was not doing it with the guys we had, he was not very good with the young guys either, reason enough to fire him, in my book.

    • habsguy92 says:

      A bit of a selective stat but worth noting:

      Following our despicable start to the season that saw us go 1-5-2, Martin pulled les boys together, going 12-7-5 up to the point of his dismissal…

      …had he kept that up, weeda been fine!

    • Bill says:

      He probably did err in firing Martin. Not that I miss Jacques. But I still don’t see how you go from there to blaming the entire season on the GM: “full responsibility”?

      Full Breezer 4 Life

  67. avi says:

    Please tank. No “winning” streak that allows “The Ghost” to save his ass and extend his brutal GM reign of horror by convincing Mr. Molson that “if only we had a healthy Markov we would be contenders.”

  68. Corson27 says:

    Ok boys enough of this winning nonsense it is way too late for that. The focus now Should be a lottery pick. The last few years the Leafs have always been chasing the Habs in the standings, and they still are but for last.

  69. jols101 says:

    St. Louis, the 1st place team in the league just signed Schwartz to a contract and he is expected to make his NHL debut when his Junior season ends this year.

    I have been reading a lot of posts and many of you want beaulieu, tinordi and gallager to spend 2 years in the AHL before making the Habs. I truely believe that is old school thinking, it is a young mans league these days and i would like to see one or two of those young, dynamic players in the line up next year.

    If 1st place teams ar doing it, i can see no reason why a 28th place Habs team can’t have a couple young, hungry and talented players on their roster immediately…just my opinion

    • Habsrule1 says:

      They will likely be at traing camp for the big club. After that, it’s management’s call. Hopefully, they get the shot if they earn it.

      Go Habs Go!!

      “Fans are great, but the quickest way to start losing is to listen to them.” – Sam Pollock

    • ont fan says:

      We would all like to see them in the NHL…but they are like 16 yr. olds in Jrs playing against 19 and 20yr. olds…they need to get bigger and at the same time learn to play against men with experience. Only a few can do it.

    • Malreg says:

      Schartz’s college season is already finished, hence why he signed now.

      Beaulieu, Tinordi, and Gallagher still have a while yet to go, especially if their teams go deep in the playoffs.

    • Bill says:

      A talented forward seems to be able to step into the NHL more easily than a D. It’s not inconceivable, though also not likely, that Gallagher could make the Habs next year. But as defencemen, Beaulieu will need at least the same amount of time as PK – one year in the AHL – and Tinordi, who is rougher around the edges, could probably use two.

      Nothing wrong with letting guys develop in the AHL. It’s a good league. Plus, by the time they arrive in the NHL, they’re more ready to jump in, and we haven’t burned a year of their NHL contract.

      Full Breezer 4 Life

  70. FanCritic says:

    RC not really trying to win look at the lines. should have left Plekanec between Cole and Pacioretty they were good in the Vancouver win.
    Desharnais should be between Bourque and Eller
    Gomez between Geoffrion and Leblanc
    Nokelainen between White and Campoli

    • HabinBurlington says:

      Eric Engels in his blog kind of raised the question through innuendo that DD watching Cole score 2 with Plex helped loosen his groin muscle quicker. Not sure what to make of that.

      • Un Canadien errant says:

        Interesting take, but off-target. If David had been a highly-paid self-satisfied underperformer who has a tendency to avoid contact and sacrifice, and had been coasting and resting on his laurels, this notion may have had more traction.

        As it is, I’m sure David is just itching to get back on the ice after being forced to miss a game, and that he would have been just as eager if his linemates had been shut out. There is no basis in fact to doubt that he loves playing and will only miss games due to injury.

        How about it NHL? No fighting, just hockey?

        • HabinBurlington says:

          I agree, I was quite surprised to read Eric write that. I also didn’t agree with his skepticism of Markov in the first part of the article.

    • Habsrule1 says:

      Not sure if this is a joke but just in case…..
      I think DD between Cale & Max has been pretty good ALL SEASON as complared to 1 GAME against Vancouver.

      Go Habs Go!!

      “Fans are great, but the quickest way to start losing is to listen to them.” – Sam Pollock

  71. habstrinifan says:

    Dont be surprised if Cole pots TWO tonight. You know he’s motivated to get to 30.

  72. Kimberly2u says:


  73. shiram says:

    Miller versus Budaj, can it be a good one too?

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