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Missing Andrei Markov, Mike Cammalleri and Roman Hamrlik, the Canadiens came close at the ACC.
Jean-Sebastien Giguere made 26 saves – including two in the dying seconds to preserve the win.
CJAD is usually 5-15 seconds ahead or behind RDS/CBC. All that speed of light/speed of sound/radio wave/microwave stuff.
Note the new digs! but yeah I’m still on Twitter!
Eyes deceive. “Clutch” is in the eye of the beholder. Human observers are fantastic at finding patterns, even where they don’t exist. And it’s virtually impossible not to insert one’s biases in one’s observations, whether this observer is you, me, or Scotty Bowman. You say you saw him do X, I say I saw something different, and we won’t figure out who’s right just by looking at him.
Generally, whenever one says “forget the statistics”, that should be a clue that the argument is on shaky ground. Statistics are only ever a measure of what happens on the ice, and so long as they are complete (G-A-P is a very shallow statistic). If one’s observation does not match what was recorded to have happened on the ice, what’s more likely to be wrong, really?
For instance, you say he’d never score a game-tying goal… yet I distinctly remember one he scored against Washington in a game the Habs lost in overtime to an Ovechkin who’d ended the game with 4 goals and five points. This is purely an anecdote, and it’s worthless for that reason, but it illustrates that what sticks out to your mind and what sticks out to mine may well be different.
Or, to use a semi-useful statistic, when you say he never seemed to score a go-ahead goal… it’s interesting to note that 8 of his 48 career
goals with the Habs were the proverbial “first goal of the game”, which
are go-ahead goals by definition (and only a subset of those). Are those “clutch” goals? We keep being told the first goal of the game is so very important, after all, and over 10% of Lats’ goals with the Habs were first goals.
Or how about that he was consistently a leader in even-strength goals on a team that struggled to get them? Aren’t PP goals easier to come by than ES goals? Wouldn’t Lats propensity towards 5-on-5 goals point to a certain level of ability in scoring in tough situations?
The reality is that hockey is such a low-scoring game that there’s practically no such thing as an unimportant goal.
I’ve grown tired of the players who didn’t seem to care what way the game was going. Fine, I didn’t really watch much of his opening season but the point is, as it went on in his career it’s hard to find times where he was a consistent, active player on the ice, making the moves that you can see, forget the statistics of it, forget looking at TOI versus goals, just watching him you didn’t see a player who was doing the things that you expect to see from a regular player with top minutes, a guy who’s playing on every shift and making good moves.
He never seemed to score in any clutch moment, a tying goal, a go-ahead goal when the the team really needed it. He was there, he scored now and then with some game-winners but it was never when it came down to the wire that you looked to Latendresse, you just didn’t expect to see him doing anything because he didn’t. He seemed to just be fine playing on the Canadiens but he didn’t seem to be that invested like Koivu or Gionta is in the win. You can throw out as many numbers as you like, but to someone who’s watching, you don’t get the impression that he was giving it all he could and he really had a love for the team and wanting to do all he could, because he was often not delivering any impact to the games. There’s something to be said for watching the game and throwing away statistics and Latendresse’s numbers showed a guy who could have been much better but his own on-ice efforts showed he wasn’t interested in being better, for Montreal anyway.
– I shall always remember Captain Koivu.
Frankly, this would be a waste of time; your mind is already made up, and I don’t trust that you would accept anything I came up with regardless of whether I was right or not. I could point to, say, the 10-game stretch starting with his first NHL goal, but you’d probably claim he was dogging it even though he was a 19-year-old rookie carrying his own weight on a top line at the time. Latendresse wasn’t dogging it; it’s just that you decided he was. The amount of bad faith and irrational hatred heaped upon him would be surprising if it weren’t almost a yearly thing for the Habs to pick a player to pick on like this. I wonder if it’ll be Price or Andrei K this year.
Bottom line is this: objectively, Latendresse was productive. Your subjective (and frankly, clearly biased) observations about how he “seemed” to be dogging it or “seemed” not to be able to finish when he had the puck on his stick are only informed by your preconceived notions; they plainly don’t weigh up against his goal-scoring rates (near the top of the team by icetime). He actually “seemed” to me to be one of the most reliable Habs on
breakaways and penalty shots, but really, what is an observation like
that worth? I put more stock in how much he produced while he was on the ice, and whether he was driving possession the right way. Which he was.
16 goals in 73 games on 12 minutes a night is actually a lot of goal-scoring, and one that definitely warrants expansion of the player’s role. As is 14 goals in 56 games while playing 13 minutes a night. Usually, scorers who produce at this rate are recognized and given 16ish minutes or more… like what he got in Minnesota.
But what’s the use? It’s clear that your irrational hatred of Latendresse won’t be swayed by any amount of reality.
Really, name that 10-game stretch, please tell me of the 10 straight games where he was a standout on the team and nobody could say he was dogging it. His results proved to be maybe half of what he was actually capable of in Montreal because he played lazily, slow skater and he couldn’t win the board battles, so what good was his size really? His hits weren’t that remarkable either, often out of place or just irrelevant to what was going on in the game.
He didn’t work hard, he was not Koivu, Kostopoulos, Gorges, Gionta, Markov, Lapierre… the guys who played all out even when the game was out of reach. He was on and off and he didn’t have the talent that justified that kind of performance. He rarely seemed to finish when he had goals on his stick either. Difference between MIN and MTL is that he is actually playing like he did in the games where he scored for Montreal each game so the scoring opportunities actually more often, he’s doing the same thing each game, not having lazy nights out where he skates around, gives away the puck and throws a useless hit 30 feet from the action. “Goal scoring in spades” is not 16 goals a year either. You don’t get ice time for having a good game, than 4 soft ones. Night in, night out effort is something he didn’t feel like doing here.
In Minnesota, that organization is so poorly handled and drafts so badly that a trade that brings in a 20+ goal scorer could be their best ever because it would just about the first time they managed it. Latendresse is finding it easy play away from the spotlight or it was his wakeup call but he can score as often as he likes in Minnesota, it doesn’t matter because he could never bother to give Montreal an 82-game effort, or a 50-game effort really.
You wouldn’t expect LaSlugesse to exert himself, would you? He can’t seem to find the energy to skate or hit anybody, but he’s got enough in him to raise his stick and pump his fists to celebrate Koivu the Younger’s work getting him the puck.
I could go back and point at a 10-game stretch, but what would that prove? You’d merely claim he was dogging it. But frankly, not only do I think this argument is a load of crap, even if it were true I wouldn’t particularly care. He was giving the Habs results and his play in Minnesota shows that he could’ve been a very useful player — which we knew because he was visibly on that path in Montreal.
It seems to me “he has a bad work ethic” is invariably the argument that gets used to diss players that one doesn’t like when one can’t find a better (read: real) reason to diss them. Funnily enough, that complaint still gets directed at players that are effective in spite of those supposed problems. There’s also a marked tendancy to mistake skating and skating speed for “hard work”. I give work ethic complaints little credence as a result.
I don’t think Latendresse “flat out refulsed to go to the net”. He actually did go to the net, though perhaps not with the frequency that fans might have liked, but here’s the kicker: there wasn’t much of a chance for him to go to the net productively. Apparently Martin wanted him to be Holmstrom, but the problem is that Holmstrom is not as good a player at even-strength as Latendresse already was, and only cracked the 10-goal mark at even strength with Datsyuk. Latendresse was more effective in his usual style than in the Holmstrom style, especially when he was paired with Lapierre and similar grinders when #84 had by far the best puck skills on the line. People were complaining about him refusing to go to the net when it did not make sense for him to do so.
(This obsession with “going to the net” makes for a convenient cliche, but it’s plainly untrue that it’s always the best play.)
Like I said, feel free to continue to come up with excuses to justify the organization’s bad trade if it makes you feel better, but it won’t change that it was a blatant mistake, one that was visible when it happened and is still visible now.
Carbo and Martin both handled Latendresse poorly. Besides his size and
hitting (something which we keep being told the Habs lack), Latendresse
demonstrated goal-scoring skills in spades. He was one of the very best
goal-scorers on the team every season he played in Montreal. Yet, oddly,
this did not lead to him being given icetime commensurate with those
results… until he landed in Minnesota. Funny how he immediately started racking up counting numbers even if, really, he’s not actually playing any better or different.
You know they call him “BTE” on Minnesota blogs — “Best Trade Ever”?
That goal was all Mikko!
“It must be love!”
Notice how Gui!’s goal was thanks to him being in front of the net? What a coincidence! Who’d have thought a guy would score more goals if he stayed around the crease?
Also, Mikko made a great play to set it up.
Great. I’m a huge JC fan, I hope this doesn’t ruin him for me. Thinking of Dion P every time I hear that song. That is bad.
Game day , uh events…
Go to work in the morning hungover- Check
$31.27 in my pocket to buy a case of beer- check
Yell at kids on bikes from my truck as i drive to liqor store- check
Head to buddies tralor with beer and steak, swear at Habs ineptitude, laugh at Leafs ineptitude…- can’t wait
Ya i’m set too
Why do you need the kids?
Lapierre played with a lot of guys besides Latendresse that year and he wasn’t a constant linemate of Laps until the second half of the season, otherwise he might have contributed on more than two of Max’s goals several months apart from each other. That line’s offence cartered also because hey, Lapierre’s ankle was hurt and it didn’t get right for quite some time in the 09-10 season as well, without his speed Lapierre isn’t much and he couldn’t get it going with the bad ankle.
Latendresse’s goals in Minnesota came from effort as well, effort! as I have said for so long name a stretch of games in Latendresse’s career, under either Carbonneau or Martin where he played hard, relentless for 10 games. It doesn’t exist, he never had the work ethic in Montreal, he was enigmatic as Kovalev at times but didn’t have the magnificent skill that made it tolerable because he could put on such spectacular efforts when he was on his game. Blame Martin, blame Carbonneau, he never tried half as hard as a player like Koivu did. Higgins wasn’t a good shot but at least he kept shooting at the damn net and hit his 20-goal seasons because he kept trying. Plenty of players had bad work ethics and produced but it’s how often they produce that matters and Latendresse when he played well in MTL looked like he could do a lot more, but then he wouldn’t do anything for the next 5 games. He set a bad example in the locker room and couldn’t have been liked for such hack efforts by character men like Gorges and Gionta.
He flat out refused to go to the net here. Here’s a concept, do what the coach tells you to do for the extra ice time and then with that extra time, prove you can do more than just what you’re told to do. If you’re not too lazy or self-entitled that is to try it out, which he didn’t do.
Game day family event.
Apple pie in the oven – check
Two dishes of cannelloni ready for the oven – check
Home baked bread dough rising – check
Shrimp appetizers ready in the fridge – check
Kids arrive at 6. I’m set.
If anyone has Sportsnet Ontario keep your eyes peeled for this new Leafs commercial I just saw. I nearly pissed myself laughing. The music is Johnny Cash’s cover of Won’t Back Down and it features dumb dumb Dion taking a slapshot in slow motion where the puck rises and shatters the screen. Truly laughable material, a perfect match for that player and that team
Lats may not have assisted on Lapierre’s goals directly, but Latendresse was the guy who drove possession on that line and was the major reason they ended up in the offensive zone where Lapierre could end up scoring his goals. It is no surprise that the line’s offense cratered when Lats was injured and that Lapierre likewise cratered offensively when he was traded.
Latendresse is scoring in Minnesota because the Wild let him play his style (an all-around offensive player) and not the style the Habs projected him as (a Holmstrom-style banger) which would have actually made him a worse player. More importantly, though, the Wild are giving him icetime based on his results and not on whether he’s adapting his playstyle to the hare-brained image the coach had of him.
Latendresse was badly mishandled by the Habs’ coaching staff (read: Jacques Martin), and his success with Minnesota is neither surprising nor something he could not have done for the Habs with more competent coaching.
(Here’s a very good article on the subject posted in March: http://hockproject.blogspot.com/2010/03/new-latendresse.html — the comments of that are also very good. )
Ultimately, they traded a promising young player for a guy who was the same age, only a worse hockey player. But by all means, feel free to make up stories about his work ethic
to make you feel better about a clear fumble by the Habs’ brass. (Funny how the supposed lack of work ethic never prevented him from being productive, though, but then excuses don’t have to make sense.)
It’s either that or you can start hounding RDS to do their broadcasts in English 🙂
they aren’t doing it anymore… been like 2 years now (i think).
Canadien en 5!
Never go Full Retard
We finally got RDS put through on cable this year. It was a fight, but enough of us hounded the cable co. for two years. Now available. Cogeco and Rogers in the Kingston, Belleville and Trenton area.
Now if only I knew how to synchronise CJAD to the play. It is as much as 15 seconds difference. The play is at the other end sometimes. But in french, I can get about 25%. So its all good
Go back over Lapierre’s goals from 08-09, he did not get carried by Lats, he got good ice time from Carbonneau and Gui was only involved on 2 of his 15 goals (I had this argument a while ago elsewhere and had to check it out). Max Lapierre was credited with the 4th star Beauchamps trophy after his 08-09 campaign because he defined the bottom 6 so well, scoring 15 goals including a couple shorties and some slick SO goals as well.
Latendresse is scoring in Minnesota from the same place the Habs told him to play in Montreal, go to the net! He goes there in Minny but he never did in Montreal, hence his lack of production. He scored today on a feed from Mikko Koivu sitting in front of the net, when was the last time he did that in Montreal? He didn’t work hard, there is no stretch in his Canadiens career where he worked for ten games straight and forced the coach to play him because he was out there every night playing hard. He didn’t want to try or felt his roster spot was an entitlement he didn’t have to work for, either way he was a bad example on the team, a soft teammate and wasting roster space. He was given chances to succeed on the top lines under both Carbonneau and Martin but he never showed the kind of effort he should have. Sooner or later, he has to be held accountable, not the coaching staff for being lazy on the ice.
I’ve got it on Shaw as well, but I’ve heard RDS sells online coverage, and I’m not interested in anything else TV related.
I am not an animal, I just reproduce that way.
Good news…. Eric Engels will now have a blog with CTV.ca Montreal! No excuses for going to that clown Eklund’s site!
Congratulations! I’m happy to hear to found your other half, I’d be lost without mine. I’m not going to the game this year but perhaps we’ll run into each other at Hurleys.
I get it on Shaw Cable – three French stations for $2.49 a month – or just RDS for $1.95 a month.
Carolina, undefeated so far this season, now sits in sole possession of first place overall in the standings.
“Hey Richard, two minutes for looking so good!”
I will most definitely be there with my lovely bride.
Comment was not aimed AT you, but your comment gave me the fodder to throw out the generalization.
“I am guilty of using elipses…”
Howdy Chuck, you going to the Summit this year?
Sorry, that theory may make Habs fan feel better but it’s just technicolor dreaming. The problem with it is that Latendresse is not more productive, really, for Minnesota than he’d been in 2008-2009 for the Habs. His scoring numbers per minute of icetime for 2009-2010 are remarkably similar to his numbers with the Habs for 2008-2009. Moreover, he basically carried Lapierre and gave the Habs a credible third line almost entirely by his lonesome.
The big difference is that Minnesota has better coaching (at least in the context of handling Lats, if not in general) that recognized Latendresse’s achievements and ability and gave him more, well-deserved icetime. And more PP time, which Latendresse put to productive use (which he hadn’t with the Habs). And that’s why he looks like he exploded, but the key takeaway here is that he is not really playing better, he is just being put in a position to succeed.
If he had been handled well, there was exactly no reason why Latendresse couldn’t have been as productive for the Habs than he’d been for Minnesota — which we know because he already had.
Bad, bad trade, a clear mismanagement by the Habs.
They will, it was entirely predictable, and the trade was completely unnecessary.
That trade looked bad the moment it was made, I really wonder what the Habs were thinking.
Good to see you around here again, EM! Stay for a while and take a load off! (Or drop a load off, as the case may be…)
Does anyone know if RDS sells Habs packages for online streaming, not interested in Center Ice.
Tonight we will see that the Habs are severely lacking toughness. Montreal will get knocked around, as is the usual with this team.
We will also see that the Leafs are severely lacking at centre and will not make the playoffs as a result. Would Bozak/Grabovski/Brent/Mitchell make the Habs this year? I doubt it.
Finally….been looking forward to this for a while!!
That’s true… he’s being consistent when he gets good minutes and good players around him.
He would look good with Gomez and Gionta.
Prediction: Latendresse scores 30+ this season. Pouliot… 20 or less.
I don’t really have a ton of faith in AK46 – he just has so much talent that you think he will break out. I have a soft spot for someone who’s overcome his medical condition (epilepsy) and still soldiers on. I wonder sometimes whether his meds put him in a zone…With Price, I never thought he earned the promotion to Number 1 the first time he got it, and especially not this time. Hope he turns it around, though. I disliked LaSlowesse for the same reason – he never earned his spot. Ryan White has shown more determination than LaTenderness ever did – but he has to wait on the farm. AK46, with five times LaUseless’ talent was buried in Hamilton and Belarus for awhile as well. He eventually earned his spot.
I don’t like when a player is given a spot and then goes through the motions like they’re the chosen one.
And – I see where LaGluesse scored a goal – big deal. He may pop a few on a last place team, but he plays soft and pouts if he doesn’t get top status.
Exactly!! No regrets here!
YES HABS CAN!!
I agree with shilo the cbc TO is pro TO to the point of boredom nobody else exist.
Today, I am just so happy that hockey is back. Can’t wait for tonight, it’s gonna be great! At this point, I don’t care how good we are…but it would be nice to beat the *&#@ Laffs….
Price in Net tonight.
MAN I missed hockey!!!!
Goalies in Montreal have two roles, netminder and scapegoat.
I do not think so…he is just one of those players who needed a change in scenery, he had his chances in Montreal but could not keep it up…it is too bad he could not be consistently successful but at least he is being successful somewhere.
This may also apply to Price depending on what happens.
He scored a goal going to the net. The same thing the Habs tried to get him to do consistently for 3 1/4 years and he never wanted to do here, goodbye to Tenderness and his soft attitude and crybaby ways in the media.
Scott Burnside of ESPN has zero faith in Price, but he never had much faith in the Habs in general anyway, in any case, this is what he had to say about Price as #9 of stories to watch out for:
“Having been handed the No. 1 netminding job in Montreal based on something other than level of play, Carey Price spent some of his offseason doing rodeo work. Does that sound like a good idea? Does that sound like someone who has the right mental focus to be a No. 1 netminder in one of the toughest hockey markets in the game? Uh, no. And having watched him mope about during the playoffs last spring, firing pucks in anger at Washington Capitals’ players and generally looking ill-equipped to get the job done, this season looms as a great litmus test for the fifth overall pick from the 2005 draft.
What’s worse for Hab fans, who were aghast when GM Pierre Gauthier dealt playoff hero Jaroslav Halak to St. Louis, is Plan B appears to be Alex Auld, who has never been anything other than a Grade B backup. Yikes. Price may seize the moment and silence the legion of doubters in the media and throughout Hab Nation, but we doubt it.”
drop da puck!!
FYI – jacques martin comin up on http://www.fan590.com w/ his old pal doug maclean on hockey central
Habs will regret that trade….
I bet he keeps it up too.
I think he’s a great example of a player who just couldn’t handle Montreal – not because there was too much pressure (which is sometimes the case), but because he was too comfortable with all the praise he received just for being drafted. He never had to work and was guaranteed a roster spot. Then he’s traded to Minnesota where if you don’t perform, the name on the back of the jersey won’t save you. Hence he goes to the net now and scores goals.
It never would have worked in Montreal.
Why can’t I be happy for him, It pisses me off
“It’s not an obsession, It’s a way of life..”
First goal of the year! He’s had a couple good shifts already. People seem to think hes gunna get lazy again this year but I think hes gunna have an even better one.
My spinorama shootout goal with Cammy
The only tool he’s missing is between the ears. If he can work on that…
I may disapprove of what you say, but I will defend your right to make yourself look stupid.
Better to get this shit out of the way early in the season…
I never quite got that about Shiloh either.
I want the Habs to win…but I really do not know what to expect from them this season…all I know is that I will join the ride and either love it or hate it at every point of this coming season.
This is odd…AK46 has had a bad year and a half and you still have some faith in him…Price has had a bad year and a half and many are throwing him to the wolves….
Anyone in the GTA they’re showing the game beside the ACC in Maple Leaf Square on a big screen outdoors. There’s free food and drink to commemorate the opening of the shops and the square. We need some Habs fans to break up the blue and white party!
We’ll be alright Shylock, injuries and illness, are bound to happen…
AK46 – looking for him to have a great season. He’s only 25, and despite him having a down season last year, was still plus for the year – surprisingly he’s +15 for his career. He hits as well as most of our forwards and has solid offensive skills. I’ve often thought that he has the tools to be a big centre, but maybe he hasn’t got the playmaking skills – although he passes well enough.
He has been disappointing the last year and a half, but he sure seems to have all the skills.
guaranteed a neutral +/- rating, anyhow
Missing our best goal scorer, our best defenseman, another top defenseman and perhaps our starting goalie – tough way to start.
Good article by Hickey on Ryan White — makes me a bit mad that White essentially had very little chance no matter how he played to make the team because of the number of one-way contracts we signed. It doesn’t seem like very good management when you tie your own hands in terms of the roster.
6 game wining streak to start the season please.
He’ll still have a better game than most of the Leafs’ forwards though.
Fearless prediction: Cammalleri held scoreless tonight.
/\\ikeGO HABS GO!
Just thinking about a freshly zambonied ice surface sends chills down my spine, getting to see my Habs put the Leafs in their place on that ice surface is even better.
Starting tonight at 7 is a journey we’ve all been waiting all summer for. During this journey boys will become men, some will crumble under pressure (hopefully not Price), others will rise to the challenge. Some nights will seem like they couldn’t win a game, other nights it will be hard to imagine anybody beating them. There will be highs and there will be lows, glorious celebrations and burning disappointments.
One thing will be constant. Throughout all these trials and tribbulations, I and many others like me will be supporting our Habs, pushing (perhaps harshly at times) for them to be the best they can and rewarding them with near God-like reverence when they play well. Tonight it starts, let’s enjoy the ride no matter where it takes us.
BRING ON THE 2010-2011 SEASON!!
GO HABS GO!!!!!!
The struggles of today will make the victories of tomorrow that much sweeter.
hey fellow habs fans haven’t posted on here in a while due to lack of working computer so i bought a ps3 so i can and watch the games online lol. i hope whichever goalie is in net tonight ty hey don’t get killed or boo’d out there and they win which would show that at least we wont be worse then the laughs
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